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Teetering on the Brink of Buyer's Remorse


Johno

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Thanks to all of you for your kind words and wisdom. It's certainly an interesting and different type of conversation than on Nikon forums. It's much more about the philosophy of photography than a focus on the gear. Not much more than a slight whiff of judgement and condemnation either, which I appreciate.

 

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Do you take both the M10 and D800 out with you at the same time? If so, maybe that could be part of the problem. Try just using the M10 and a single lens (say a 50 or 35mm) for a while (what a friend of mine terms a "lens diet") and really get to know what the combination can do for you.

Good luck - I hope you start to enjoy and eventually love the camera.

 

 

I do not take both out. Too big a load. But I "worry" about what to do when I vacation in Hawaii in a few months and then head off to Indonesia for work. I can't imagine not taking the D800, but I increasingly dislike every pound of it. By the time I pack favorite lenses and binoculars the Thinktank Accelerator weighs 30 pounds.

 

I almost certainly will end up with redundant DSLR and Leica lens assortments. This time I will bias the gear toward Leica and narrow the Nikon down to 10 pounds of gear. I suspect Indonesia will be full of opportunities to bond with the Leica.

 

"But no info in the viewfinder other than shutter speed?"

 

 

Not really - on start up you have ISO, also indication of locked exposure and exposure compensation, and in manual mode metering guidance. Most importantly you have the framelines, a key feature of rangefinder photography.

 

Non of this should be a surprise after purchase.

 

It will feel very different at first, but start a new now you know what you have bought into and you may well end up loving it. Once you are hooked could be as big a money pit as a E46 M3 though.

 

Good luck and enjoy!

 

M3 a money pit? No! It's a sublime experience, shifting through the hills and curves with the air flowing through windows and the motor singing a chorus of praise to German engineering. Money is no object.

 

When you say none of this business of low information in the finder should be a surprise, are you saying I'm missing some obvious fact? Do you think I've been carelessly unobservant?

 

 

When you buy something expensive..make 200% sure its what you really need..esp when it's filling an emotional void..

Sounds like you don't like the cam..

Move it out..done deal..

That's great advice, but I don't truly need anything I own, other than food, clothes and shelter. Nearly everything I buy is based on want. My D800 and dozen lens collection and flash and tripod etc. had me 100 percent covered. The Sony RX100V gives me a serviceable P&S when I didn't feel like weight lifting; for shooting with something that fits a shirt pocket.

 

I may end up doing as you say and some other person will have an opportunity to own a carefully used camera. But first I will take the advice of kind strangers here, and keep giving it a chance in a real shooting environment.

 

 

First of all, very sorry for your loss, that is a far more unfortunate life change than any purchase you may have made in haste.

Secondly, while you could have rented the camera to see where you are with it, consider any money lost on the deal in selling it down the road as being the same. So try not to be so hard on your self.

Leica M is a weird but beautiful beast in our world of everything changing in the blink of an eye. I don’t at all consider it an upgrade to anything but rather an addition to how I approach photography on any given day.

It can be an “Aha!” moment or it can take a while to gel with, if ever. I love my Leica M cameras, they get out of the way of making satisfying images until they don’t and then I simply pull a different tool from the box.

Good luck with it all!

 

Thanks for your kind words, and for your wisdom.

 

 

So true. My father wouldn't have them in the house. Hasselblads, Rolleis, yes. Leicas, no. So many years later, when I finally bought an M, I immediately took to it. Perhaps, in retrospect, unsurprising as the old man and I often clashed on any number of things.

 

I suppose its hard for those of us so smitten to understand the point of view of those that aren't, but in a funny twist of fate, having bought a Q this morning after a couple of years with nothing other than an M in hand, I can relate to Johno's sentiment, at least from across the table. I wouldn't say I'm suffering buyers remorse, but there's no doubt that while the Q is a Leica, and quite a capable camera, its not an M. I expect I'll come to appreciate it more fully in time, but in its first moments in the fold, I'm finding it more than a bit too fidgety. Too many buttons, modes which might make the camera more capable, but equally raise the annoyance level and dull the experience. The Q's purchase has been a stern reminder for me as to why I've settled on a manual focus, RF camera with an electronic wart stuck on top as my primary vehicle for photographic expression.

 

Obviously a minimalist approach isnt for everyone. To some degree it strips bare one's own flaws and shortcomings, offering no cover and providing a myriad of ways one can screw up a shot. But for the willing, it is both liberating and joyous to be the sole consciousness behind the photograph. AFAIC, the darker side of modern technology is the ever increasing belief by the designers of it that they know far better than the users, the what and why of how it will be employed. The M design makes no such demands, which I suppose for some makes it a horribly demanding partner. Certainly, its not a casual date, something you can take out every now and again and expect to get lucky.

 

I'd suggest you give it more time and energy. Look through these pages and see what others have achieved with an M in their hands. Perhaps it will help inspire a greater sense of what you too can accomplish in time. It may or may not be the right path, but as you're already on it, perhaps walk it for a while longer and know for sure.

 

 

I had a Q right before this and liked it a lot. So much that I wanted to upgrade the experience into Leica's flagship camera. And, be able to change lenses. I'm finding in hindsight that it is not so easy to get a very impressive image with the M10 as it is with the Q. I was hoping I could get Q images but with lens options. I suppose I still can, but early experiments show the Q was a lot easier to get great, sharp images with.

 

When I consider the Q was $4,250 and the 28 mm lens for the M is $4,195, the Q is a spectacular deal. (Even if Q is Leica with Panasonic DNA. Maybe that mixed blood is what makes the Q such a great camera.)

 

You obviously didn't do any research before buying the camera and just bought the name rather than a camera that meets your requirements.

Move on if it's not right.

Friend, I'm in marketing, and I understand better than most when I am responding to a brand vs. buying on technical features. This was 70 percent seeking the magical Leica user experience, 20 percent build quality, and 10 percent smitten by the brand. Second, I spent 4 days wandering Philly with camera club friends who are active in LHSA, learning about the Q and M's they were carrying. Finally, part of me purchasing anything about $1,000 is weeks of obsessive online research, and forum stalking, and reading dozens of reviews.

 

That all said, the research -- which I regret failing to communicate sufficient for you to detect -- is perhaps like reading about having a girlfriend, vs. experience of living with one.

Edited by Johno
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Hi Johno, welcome to the forum. It looks as if you bought the M10 without a specific purpose. I was after these things when I switched from Canon to Sony, and then Sony to my M10: 

 

1. Low weight 

2. Compact size

3. Leica lenses

4. Full frame

 

Of course, I realized that I could have fulfilled all of the above (and spent less money) if I stuck with my Sony A7 and bought Leica lenses with an adapter! But there was this one other VERY IMPORTANT little detail that convinced me to buy an M body. I have shot thousands of frames with Canon for years, and owned the Sony for two years (again with a few thousand frames). I could never get used to either camera - especially the Sony. It was a hunk full of confusing buttons, and you would have to remember that the camera will over-ride you in some modes but not others, and you have to remember what it is going to over-ride. To make matters worse, things like setting the aperture and manual focus over-ride (two of the most essential requirements in photography!) varies depending on what lens you mount on your Sony. On some lenses, you turn the aperture ring on the lens. On some others, you turn the dial. To change to manual focus, with some lenses you just turn the focusing ring. On some others, you slide the ring to disengage the clutch. On some others, you flick a switch on the lens AND on the body. 

 

I realized that I would spend about a minute trying to configure my camera every time the situation changed because in the heat of the moment you forget which particular handling foible is required for the lens that you have mounted. Needless to say, it was frustrating. 

 

With the M10, I have direct access to all the controls I need. I don't need exposure compensation, so I have disabled that dial. But I DO need direct access to aperture, shutter speed, ISO, and focus!

 

I do love my M10. This absence of frustration is quite liberating. 

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Johno,

 

You have started the journey, and it will all be revealed in good time :)

 

You will eventually be impressed by the simplicity of an M, rather than disappointed with its lack of features. Personally, I prefer no information in the viewfinder (M2, M4), but they’re not digital ;)

 

The best advice, already given, is put the Nikon away and shoot solely with the M10 and one lens (28, 35, 50, whatever). Take only this to Hawaii and Indonesia. If you still haven’t bonded with it by the time you get back, trade in back on a Q and be happy.

 

This is all about giving you pleasure and satisfaction. No shame if you take a wrong turn on the journey :)

Edited by Mute-on
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If you’re anything like me then you suffer buyer’s guilt over things far less expensive than an M camera and lens. In general this passes. Try not to confuse buyer’s guilt (which can manifest from feelings like you’re not worthy) with buyer’s remorse which is much more a feeling of regret.

 

My feeling is that you should definitely not regret or feel remorseful for trying, even if it doesn’t work out. You’ll never know or have known without taking that plunge and in some ways that takes guts so it’s a positive!

 

So before rushing into any decision to sell, give it some time for buyer’s guilt to wear off and to see if you can form a bond. It won’t make much difference to the resale value whether you sell now or in 3-6 months (provided you look after it), so I say give it a chance. It can be quite a shock to come to an old-fashioned M camera from modern digitals but personally I wouldn’t have it any other way.

 

You need only view the images fellow forum members post here to see it’s capable of some really gorgeous results. Which lens are you using?

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Sell it before it’s too late!

You are on the wrong track, the M is nothing for you. You want deep menu’s, much information, many buttons for your money. The M is built on the idea of simplicity, because photography is about not so many parameters, as Jaap already said: aperture, time, depth of field and that’s it. Oh! And interesting lenses.

Maybe Leica is also the wrong brand because you don’t seem to be able to forget the money when you’re wearing your camera.

One thing is remarkable about your OP: you’re not talking about image quality whatsoever

Edited by otto.f
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The way to love a Leica M is not to take the same photos as you would with a Nikon. 

 

Maybe that is too simple, and the background to the answer is far more complex, but it goes back long before digital photography had even been imagined. The OP could start with doing some wondering for himself. Wondering why professional photographers in the 1950's and 60's would carry both a Leica and a Nikon for an example. It wasn't that Nikon didn't make wide angle lenses, or anything ultimately of a mechanical nature, so what could the answer be? The OP could cheat a bit and look at photographs made by photographers who are well known for using Leica's, but what would he see, what should he see? And I'm not talking about all that 'bokeh' and creamy 'OOF area' bollocks. I'm giving away too many clues, the OP needs to do some work himself.

Edited by 250swb
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Well Johno what I'd recommend for your upcoming trip is to simply take the M10 and a couple of lenses, say a 50mm and a 28mm if you have them. Leave the D800 at home and spend the time on that trip exploring what the M shooting experience could mean for you. At the very least your shoulder will thank you for the lighter loading.

If that doesn't pan out, then you can probably sell the M10 at no great loss and maybe even get a Q again as you seemed to appreciate that camera a lot.

But my guess would be that you'd end up keeping the M.

 

 

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I do not take both out. Too big a load. But I "worry" about what to do when I vacation in Hawaii in a few months and then head off to Indonesia for work. I can't imagine not taking the D800, but I increasingly dislike every pound of it. By the time I pack favorite lenses and binoculars the Thinktank Accelerator weighs 30 pounds.

I almost certainly will end up with redundant DSLR and Leica lens assortments. This time I will bias the gear toward Leica and narrow the Nikon down to 10 pounds of gear. I suspect Indonesia will be full of opportunities to bond with the Leica

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"When you say none of this business of low information in the finder should be a surprise, are you saying I'm missing some obvious fact? Do you think I've been carelessly unobservant?"

 

Not at all. What I was suggesting is  that the Leica website and other places detail the specification of the camera that can be researched before the big decision.  You will soon (I hope) appreciate you have all you need to take great photographs. Its a short and steep learning curve - enjoy the journey!

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I had a Q right before this and liked it a lot. So much that I wanted to upgrade the experience into Leica's flagship camera. And, be able to change lenses. I'm finding in hindsight that it is not so easy to get a very impressive image with the M10 as it is with the Q. I was hoping I could get Q images but with lens options. I suppose I still can, but early experiments show the Q was a lot easier to get great, sharp images with.

 

 

The Q might superficially resemble a rangefinder camera but, having a TTL viewing system, it is an entirely different experience. The M10 is absolutely not an interchangeable lens version of the Q nor, vice versa, is the Q the fixed lens equivalent of an M camera. This fundamental difference may explain your current disappointment.

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Thanks to all of you for your kind words and wisdom. It's certainly an interesting and different type of conversation than on Nikon forums. It's much more about the philosophy of photography than a focus on the gear. Not much more than a slight whiff of judgement and condemnation either, which I appreciate.

 

-------

 

 

 

I do not take both out. Too big a load. But I "worry" about what to do when I vacation in Hawaii in a few months and then head off to Indonesia for work. I can't imagine not taking the D800, but I increasingly dislike every pound of it. By the time I pack favorite lenses and binoculars the Thinktank Accelerator weighs 30 pounds.

 

I almost certainly will end up with redundant DSLR and Leica lens assortments. This time I will bias the gear toward Leica and narrow the Nikon down to 10 pounds of gear. I suspect Indonesia will be full of opportunities to bond with the Leica.

 

 

 

M3 a money pit? No! It's a sublime experience, shifting through the hills and curves with the air flowing through windows and the motor singing a chorus of praise to German engineering. Money is no object.

 

When you say none of this business of low information in the finder should be a surprise, are you saying I'm missing some obvious fact? Do you think I've been carelessly unobservant?

 

 

That's great advice, but I don't truly need anything I own, other than food, clothes and shelter. Nearly everything I buy is based on want. My D800 and dozen lens collection and flash and tripod etc. had me 100 percent covered. The Sony RX100V gives me a serviceable P&S when I didn't feel like weight lifting; for shooting with something that fits a shirt pocket.

 

I may end up doing as you say and some other person will have an opportunity to own a carefully used camera. But first I will take the advice of kind strangers here, and keep giving it a chance in a real shooting environment.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your kind words, and for your wisdom.

 

 

 

 

I had a Q right before this and liked it a lot. So much that I wanted to upgrade the experience into Leica's flagship camera. And, be able to change lenses. I'm finding in hindsight that it is not so easy to get a very impressive image with the M10 as it is with the Q. I was hoping I could get Q images but with lens options. I suppose I still can, but early experiments show the Q was a lot easier to get great, sharp images with.

 

When I consider the Q was $4,250 and the 28 mm lens for the M is $4,195, the Q is a spectacular deal. (Even if Q is Leica with Panasonic DNA. Maybe that mixed blood is what makes the Q such a great camera.)

 

Friend, I'm in marketing, and I understand better than most when I am responding to a brand vs. buying on technical features. This was 70 percent seeking the magical Leica user experience, 20 percent build quality, and 10 percent smitten by the brand. Second, I spent 4 days wandering Philly with camera club friends who are active in LHSA, learning about the Q and M's they were carrying. Finally, part of me purchasing anything about $1,000 is weeks of obsessive online research, and forum stalking, and reading dozens of reviews.

 

That all said, the research -- which I regret failing to communicate sufficient for you to detect -- is perhaps like reading about having a girlfriend, vs. experience of living with one.

A lot of what you're complaining about should have been obvious if you had done basic research so I assumed it was a kind of impulse buy.

 

Even so rangefinder cameras aren't everyone's cup of tea. It's OK not to like it.

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That all said, the research -- which I regret failing to communicate sufficient for you to detect -- is perhaps like reading about having a girlfriend, vs. experience of living with one.

 

And in a way you are somewhat right. And the 'magical Leica user experience' you refer to is a myth. In essence using a Leica to take photographs is like using any other tool for a job - it comes down to whether its the right tool to use for your photography, and whether you find it an appropriate tool for you to use. Some people like myself enjoy using Leica rangefinders (I first used one back in 1980 so I'm used to them now), others simply do not. In some ways they can be an acquired taste, but what they are not is 'magical'. Its worth persevering for a time because the experience of using them is so different to a dSLR, and if you do so you may find that their unforgiving ways and other quirks are actually a rather good thing. Or you may not. IMO its tricky because only by using RF cameras for a time can you tell whether they are for you. Personally my Leicas are the last cameras I would give up using and I they suit my way of working very well. But they are not to everybody's taste. Like the girlfriend, having a Leica can be great; living with it may take some getting used to and be thoroughly enjoyable or it may turn out to be impossible ;) .

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Thanks to all of you for your kind words and wisdom. It's certainly an interesting and different type of conversation than on Nikon forums. It's much more about the philosophy of photography than a focus on the gear. Not much more than a slight whiff of judgement and condemnation either, which I appreciate.

 

-------

 

 

 

I do not take both out. Too big a load. But I "worry" about what to do when I vacation in Hawaii in a few months and then head off to Indonesia for work. I can't imagine not taking the D800, but I increasingly dislike every pound of it. By the time I pack favorite lenses and binoculars the Thinktank Accelerator weighs 30 pounds.

 

I almost certainly will end up with redundant DSLR and Leica lens assortments. This time I will bias the gear toward Leica and narrow the Nikon down to 10 pounds of gear. I suspect Indonesia will be full of opportunities to bond with the Leica.

 

 

 

M3 a money pit? No! It's a sublime experience, shifting through the hills and curves with the air flowing through windows and the motor singing a chorus of praise to German engineering. Money is no object.

 

When you say none of this business of low information in the finder should be a surprise, are you saying I'm missing some obvious fact? Do you think I've been carelessly unobservant?

 

 

That's great advice, but I don't truly need anything I own, other than food, clothes and shelter. Nearly everything I buy is based on want. My D800 and dozen lens collection and flash and tripod etc. had me 100 percent covered. The Sony RX100V gives me a serviceable P&S when I didn't feel like weight lifting; for shooting with something that fits a shirt pocket.

 

I may end up doing as you say and some other person will have an opportunity to own a carefully used camera. But first I will take the advice of kind strangers here, and keep giving it a chance in a real shooting environment.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your kind words, and for your wisdom.

 

 

 

 

I had a Q right before this and liked it a lot. So much that I wanted to upgrade the experience into Leica's flagship camera. And, be able to change lenses. I'm finding in hindsight that it is not so easy to get a very impressive image with the M10 as it is with the Q. I was hoping I could get Q images but with lens options. I suppose I still can, but early experiments show the Q was a lot easier to get great, sharp images with.

 

When I consider the Q was $4,250 and the 28 mm lens for the M is $4,195, the Q is a spectacular deal. (Even if Q is Leica with Panasonic DNA. Maybe that mixed blood is what makes the Q such a great camera.)

 

Friend, I'm in marketing, and I understand better than most when I am responding to a brand vs. buying on technical features. This was 70 percent seeking the magical Leica user experience, 20 percent build quality, and 10 percent smitten by the brand. Second, I spent 4 days wandering Philly with camera club friends who are active in LHSA, learning about the Q and M's they were carrying. Finally, part of me purchasing anything about $1,000 is weeks of obsessive online research, and forum stalking, and reading dozens of reviews.

 

That all said, the research -- which I regret failing to communicate sufficient for you to detect -- is perhaps like reading about having a girlfriend, vs. experience of living with one.

Just my thoughts here - you have too much stuff, you need to let go, especially when traveling. This much stuff makes travel miserable, it burdens you, it slows you down, you miss pictures thinking about the right lens instead of thinking about how to make the tool you have in your hands work for you. The amount of freedom you gain by leaving stuff at home is remarkable, and I think you should try this.

 

World class photographers often have no problem traveling with nothing more than 2-3 primes. My longest, most productive trips were made with minimal gear. I made one of my books with one rolleiflex and one m6 with a 35mm. Were there times I wish I had something other than a 'normal' and a 'wide' lens? Yea, but mostly I too busy chasing images with the wonderful tools I had and using them to the best of my ability.

 

Bring your M10 and 2 lenses and walk around more and figure out how to work with them, instead of worrying about what you're missing from you Nikon. Especially during travel, you don't need that. If you don't appreciate the M after that, then okay, but if you're comparing it to the Nikon, you're not doing it right. It's a different tool and needs to be thought about differently. 

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It is not buyer's remorse, John... I suspect that you are dealing with the shock of having a camera shorn of its bells and whistles.. As you said: a flip phone as opposed to a smart phone...

The important point is that a good photographer just needs the three essentials Jaap mentioned: exposure, focus and composition. The rest is up to you.

I would also just take the M 10 out on its own and shoot shoot shoot a lot. Enjoy yourself and you will eventually grow into loving your camera.

I did!

Albert  :D  :D  :D

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I am new to the Leica m10. I own canon 1dxmkii and 5dsr cameras with lens spanning 11-24 to 600mm.

 

I purchased the m10 to slow down, think, compose and take the image.  I have only one lens, a 50 f2 

 

take some time to get used to it

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Thanks to all of you for your kind words and wisdom. It's certainly an interesting and different type of conversation than on Nikon forums. It's much more about the philosophy of photography than a focus on the gear. Not much more than a slight whiff of judgement and condemnation either, which I appreciate.

 

-------

 

 

 

I do not take both out. Too big a load. But I "worry" about what to do when I vacation in Hawaii in a few months and then head off to Indonesia for work. I can't imagine not taking the D800, but I increasingly dislike every pound of it. By the time I pack favorite lenses and binoculars the Thinktank Accelerator weighs 30 pounds.

 

I almost certainly will end up with redundant DSLR and Leica lens assortments. This time I will bias the gear toward Leica and narrow the Nikon down to 10 pounds of gear. I suspect Indonesia will be full of opportunities to bond with the Leica.

 

 

 

 

 

I struggled with the same choice when I went to the Faroe Islands on September: take the heavy D800 bulk or...not...

I took the risk and just went with the Q, the M10+50lux, a 90cron and a 21 zeiss a friend wanted me to try: I did not regret the D800, the leicas did a great job.

But in June next I am going to Iceland and will take the D800 with a prime just for birds and mammals...

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...

I bought it for a distraction and because I wanted to try something different. 

 

...

 

You achieved your stated objective (above).

 

Now your journey continues to learn why it's different, and how you can find enjoyment in this paradigm shift.

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I had a little trouble with the M (for me it was the M240) at first as well. I loved the build quality and that it's engineered in my home country. I loved its heritage. But I had trouble using it, and grew frustrated a bit after a few weeks. Then I booked a portrait / people photography workshop and took almost 2000 pictures with the M that day (compared to 20 with my Sony A7R2)... it transformed me, I learned how to focus and the camera was becoming a trusted tool which I could rely on. In the meantime I have switched to the M10, which I even love a bit more because of its better sensor, viewfinder and its slimmer body.

 

So, my advice is: Go out, shoot, shoot, shoot. Great times and photos await you.

 

An example from the workshop I was talking about is below.

 

Good luck!

Markus

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

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