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Teetering on the Brink of Buyer's Remorse


Johno

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Newbie here -- I just made a jump from D800 to add a M10 to my photo-arsenal and I'm struggling with the purchase. Please don't be offended. Maybe I'm the guy showing up with a can of worms at a fly fishing conference. Carrying a Bic to fountain pen convention. So I apologize in advance.

 

I've spent this much money on a camera that has quantifiably inferior features to many other options at far below the price.

 

I bought it for a distraction and because I wanted to try something different. I like the Leica build quality and wanted to try the RF experience, which people write about like it's extremely satisfying and special. I respect the brand. My friend has a Q; I tried it and really liked it! Wow what a nice camera that was. After several hundred shots with the M seeking the same feel but with interchangeable lenses I kind of wonder if I bought the camera equivalent of a fine hand-made flip phone. (Reduction to the essentials.) "Who needs navigation and Netflix on a phone?" my dad scoffs. Did I buy "spring water in a Pepsi world" -- as I read elsewhere -- only to realize they sell really good whiskey made with spring water for a lot less than this water cost? I mean with lenses I could buy a used M3, as in e46 BMW.

 

How much shooting do I need to do to "love" this camera? Yes, I kind of like slowing down and composing the shot and so on. But no info in the viewfinder other than shutter speed?

 

Sorry for the vent. Sorry for starting off on a negative note, but I'm scared I've spent a lot of money and even lost a little hope. Disclosure: One reason I bought it was to try to rekindle my lifelong love of shooting, snuffed out by a personal loss -- and a bizarre discovery at work -- that helped sapped my will to even keep going. I don't want to dwell on that. But I thought it's best to disclose my overall mindset is a bit colored these days.

 

I really want to love the m10. Can anybody help me love it?

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Hello Johno, we all buy expensive things we regret, cars, boats, houses, cameras, whatever. I've a cupboard full of movie and still cameras and lenses that I should use more or should have sold years ago for one reason or another, don't beat yourself up in regards to the M10.

The Leica M is an odd bird in these days of many of our "must have" gadgets that impart so much information to us, most of which we never use or it just piles on to confuse.

An M is rather like using a map rather than a GPS, both will get you there but yes a map does push the grey matter in the head more. A GPS will take you where you want to go without any diversions and no choice unless you programme alternatives, not so a map. With a map you see a ton of different ways right away and whichever way you wander to the destination is your choice.

An M does make you step back and think about the process of photography more so than most other camera systems out there. That may not be where you want or need to be, it's not for everyone that's for sure............But give it some time, hopefully it'll grow on you.

Good luck!

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Newbie here -- I just made a jump from D800 to add a M10 to my photo-arsenal and I'm struggling with the purchase. Please don't be offended. Maybe I'm the guy showing up with a can of worms at a fly fishing conference. Carrying a Bic to fountain pen convention. So I apologize in advance.

 

I've spent this much money on a camera that has quantifiably inferior features to many other options at far below the price.

 

I bought it for a distraction and because I wanted to try something different. I like the Leica build quality and wanted to try the RF experience, which people write about like it's extremely satisfying and special. I respect the brand. My friend has a Q; I tried it and really liked it! Wow what a nice camera that was. After several hundred shots with the M seeking the same feel but with interchangeable lenses I kind of wonder if I bought the camera equivalent of a fine hand-made flip phone. (Reduction to the essentials.) "Who needs navigation and Netflix on a phone?" my dad scoffs. Did I buy "spring water in a Pepsi world" -- as I read elsewhere -- only to realize they sell really good whiskey made with spring water for a lot less than this water cost? I mean with lenses I could buy a used M3, as in e46 BMW.

 

How much shooting do I need to do to "love" this camera? Yes, I kind of like slowing down and composing the shot and so on. But no info in the viewfinder other than shutter speed?

 

Sorry for the vent. Sorry for starting off on a negative note, but I'm scared I've spent a lot of money and even lost a little hope. Disclosure: One reason I bought it was to try to rekindle my lifelong love of shooting, snuffed out by a personal loss -- and a bizarre discovery at work -- that helped sapped my will to even keep going. I don't want to dwell on that. But I thought it's best to disclose my overall mindset is a bit colored these days.

 

I really want to love the m10. Can anybody help me love it?

Well, help you love, probably no, that has to come from you and can't be forced, but we can try to influence your mindset. Because that is what it all is about.

First thing to do is to realize that most if not all "features" we have come to regard as requisites for taking photographs, starting with Autofocus and ending with - well we won't know for quite a while, as I'm sure the industry is holding some lab stuff back for release that we cannot even dream of- are nothing but crutches that have everything to do with convenience but nothing with photography.

There are but three things needed for a good photograph: Exposure, Focus and Composition. Those are catered for in an M camera. The rest is up to the brain of the photographer.

 

Don't try to "take photographs" with an M camera. Go out, look around you and snip scenes out of reality. That is what an M is made for.

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I can easily be wrong but it seems that you are more focused on what you expect a camera can do, and most you expect it from an expensive camera. “Do something that will allow me to love you ... “

Apart from the quality of the lenses and other aspects, I think that one of Leica's major qualities is that it is less "intrusive" in the "eye-brain-shot" process. You're probably too focused on waiting for a lot of things from it, perhaps to justify the choice. You are not going out for a ride with a friend who talks a lot but can also be a bit weighty but with a discreet friend who, without many words, helps you and supports you in what you are doing. It may seem a little strange to you but to love your M10 I think you should forget about it and only take pictures. You will see that slowly, without realizing it, you will begin to love it.

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You don't actually say what you find wrong with the M. What are you missing? What does it do that you don't like?

 

IMO a camera is a tool, not a love object. If you're looking for love, you need something softer, that gives in the right places and responds back.

 

For me, a Leica is a camera that gets out of the way when you take photographs, it doesn't seek my attention. You will not notice much difference in IQ between the M and your Nikon with a good lens (though Leica lenses are consistently good, more so than most other brands), but I find I'm more likely to take my M with me than anything bigger, heavier or more complicated, I can use it in certain circumstances without drawing attention to myself, and I enjoy thinking more about composition than about what buttons I must press.

 

YMMV

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Do you take both the M10 and D800 out with you at the same time?  If so, maybe that could be part of the problem.  Try just using the M10 and a single lens (say a 50 or 35mm) for a while (what a friend of mine terms a "lens diet") and really get to know what the combination can do for you.   

Good luck - I hope you start to enjoy and eventually love the camera.  

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I'm not sure what you mean by 'love'. For many people a camera is just a tool which enables them to be creative. An optical paint brush, as it were. The M10 and other Leica rangefinders are designed for photographers who want to stick to the basics of focus, compose and expose. Unfortunately, a lot of the discussions about digital cameras concentrate on non essentials such as firmware, menus, profiles etc, etc. This might give the impression that the camera might do things for you, whereas the M10 is a camera for photographers who want to do things with the camera in a basic photographic way.

 

The above relates to the input side of things. Going on to the other side of the 'love' equation, the output side, you could buy a few books of photographs taken by top quality Leica photographers, either from the past or the present. If at any point you see photographs about which you can say that you wish you had taken them, then there remains the possibility that you will at some stage bond with the camera. If you don't see anything that appeals in that way, I would suggest that you should sell the camera and find something else that suits your photography better.

 

William

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Just to share my thoughts on why i buy an M.

 

I dont buy it for fastest AF.

I donrt buy it for full weather sealed.

I dont buy it for its highest Megapixel CMOS.

I dont buy it for its 7 axis IBIS.

 

I buy it to optimise the capability of my Leica lens.

For that i willingly pay that price.

No regrets.

 

I came from Canon and Sony camps, having used their then top models,

I sold every piece of Canon and Sony and did not look back.

 

Just sharing my experience in owning Leica system.

No umbrage intended.

 

Benedict.

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I'm not sure what you mean by 'love'. For many people a camera is just a tool which enables them to be creative. An optical paint brush, as it were. The M10 and other Leica rangefinders are designed for photographers who want to stick to the basics of focus, compose and expose. Unfortunately, a lot of the discussions about digital cameras concentrate on non essentials such as firmware, menus, profiles etc, etc. This might give the impression that the camera might do things for you, whereas the M10 is a camera for photographers who want to do things with the camera in a basic photographic way.

 

The above relates to the input side of things. Going on to the other side of the 'love' equation, the output side, you could buy a few books of photographs taken by top quality Leica photographers, either from the past or the present. If at any point you see photographs about which you can say that you wish you had taken them, then there remains the possibility that you will at some stage bond with the camera. If you don't see anything that appeals in that way, I would suggest that you should sell the camera and find something else that suits your photography better.

 

William

 

I'm sure you don't mean that last sentence to come out as harsh as it sounds, William. You are completely right though, a tool should suit the purpose and the style of working of the user to be successful. However, I get the impression that the OP is looking for a change in style, but is struggling to get to the essentials of photography.

I used to find Leica's slogan "das Wesentliche" slightly embarassing, but I must admit that it does summarize their approach to photography quite well.

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   "But no info in the viewfinder other than shutter speed?"

 

Not really - on start up you have ISO, also indication of locked exposure and exposure compensation, and in manual mode metering guidance. Most importantly you have the framelines, a key feature of rangefinder photography.

 

Non of this should be a surprise after purchase.

 

It will feel very different at first, but start a new now you know what you have bought into and you may well end up loving it. Once you are hooked could be as big a money pit as a E46 M3 though.

 

Good luck and enjoy!

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I'm sure you don't mean that last sentence to come out as harsh as it sounds, William. You are completely right though, a tool should suit the purpose and the style of working of the user to be successful. However, I get the impression that the OP is looking for a change in style, but is struggling to get to the essentials of photography.

I used to find Leica's slogan "das Wesentliche" slightly embarassing, but I must admit that it does summarize their approach to photography quite well.

 

No, I don't mean to be harsh Jaap. However, sometimes you have to be direct about reality. We all know that over the years and long before the do it all digitals came on the market, a lot of people did not bond with a Leica rangefinder. That is still the case today where digital camera expectations can be difficult to achieve with a camera which depends so much on user input as a Leica M. If somebody just wants a camera with the Leica name then I would suggest a Q or one of the TL/CL series, but I suspect that the OP really wants the M to work for his photography.

 

William

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... I just made a jump from D800 to add a M10 to my photo-arsenal and I'm struggling with the purchase.

 

Recently, I went shopping for a "full-frame" camera to replace my aging APS-C cameras.

 

For the "full-frame" dSLR, I narrowed my choice to a Nikon D850.

 

For the "full-frame" mirrorless camera, I narrowed my choice to a Leica M10.

 

I liked the image quality of the D850.

 

I liked the ergonomics of the M10.

 

I could not afford them both.

 

I purchased the M10.

 

For the first time, I did not feel buyer's remorse because I knew that if I did not like the M10, I could sell it for a small loss, buy the D850, and still have money left over.

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First of all, very sorry for your loss, that is a far more unfortunate life change than any purchase you may have made in haste.

 

Secondly, while you could have rented the camera to see where you are with it, consider any money lost on the deal in selling it down the road as being the same. So try not to be so hard on your self.

 

Leica M is a weird but beautiful beast in our world of everything changing in the blink of an eye. I don’t at all consider it an upgrade to anything but rather an addition to how I approach photography on any given day.

 

It can be an “Aha!” moment or it can take a while to gel with, if ever. I love my Leica M cameras, they get out of the way of making satisfying images until they don’t and then I simply pull a different tool from the box.

 

Good luck with it all!

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I love the M10 (M8, 9, 240...) because,

 

... there aren‘t informations in the finder I don‘t need and which don’t bother me (aperture, battery capacity, sd-card status, ... )

... there is no autofocus, which never ever hits the thing, I’d like to be focused

... it does not have a case ugly like a cow, which had an accident

... nobody regards you as a professional photographer

... you receive regrets of a lot of people for having such an old fashioned camera :-)

... the simplicity of handling

... the image qualitity

...

 

That‘s it, why I never have regretted having bougt a Leica.

 

Tom

 

 

P.S. Leica M has been with me since 1987.

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Yes, I kind of like slowing down and composing the shot and so on.

I really want to love the m10. Can anybody help me love it?

 

Sounds like you are just starting to get the idea of Leica RF photography :D. FWIW I can often shoot faster with my Leicas the Canon dSLRs or Sony A7 - pre-setting a camera isn't often the way things are done now but it is with Leica RFs.

 

But nobody except yourself can decide whether RF photography is for you. Its a different way of taking photographs and far less about technicalities and far more about what yo see through the viewfinder. Sorry.

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...

 

How much shooting do I need to do to "love" this camera? ...

 

I really want to love the m10. Can anybody help me love it?

 

 

 

TL;DR: much longer than it seems at first.

 

@johno it takes a while to build up your judgement, which to me is a big component in the camera feeling like a good tool. It won't happen in your first 1000 frames, 20 hours, or few months I imagine.

 

Internalizing distances when shooting with an m-mount lens—to me—is one of the things in the way of feeling the awesomenss/rightness of the system when you start out. This happened to me in phases over months/years:

 

The first sign for me was when I stopped moving the focusing tab in the wrong direction some of the time. If you first movement is always in the right direction you're starting to learn the RF focusing.

The second wave came when I started being able to see a subject, guess the distance, and then check with the RF. As my estimates started getting better in my normal stituations I noticed I was spending a LOT less time focusing. Next was moving the focus into place based on feel before looking through the VF/RF. At first I got mostly close/far right, but then you can start getting better. Eventually the with no-look focusing I moved from judging success by the painted scale on the lens body to the RF patch itself. Often I'm nearly exactly right in my common situations between 1-5m, and sometimes very little adjustment is needed at that point. This is when the M started to feel awesome and unbeatable because I had the speed of autofocus cameras but the advantages of being able to focus through and past occluding objects, or into objects haven't moved in to place yet. :)

 

A similar process takes place with learning the center-weighted meter, and it's mostly by error and error and error and finally feeling that you've been in this situation before.

 

The M is a a very compelling experience, but it needed much more practice than I anticipated. The plateau for expertise is really high. Some people who clock dozens of hours per week with the M don't even really need light meters, rangefinders, or focus scales to be productive, which is insane to me.

 

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For me photographing has always (for about 50 years now) been a question of aperure, speed and focus. I hate cameras with so much programs that before taking a picture you have to go through X options and you end more occupied by pushing the right button than composing your picture.

If you are like me the M is for you and you will soon be in osmosis with it.

If you are a program person go for a sony alfa or other which will give you more satisfaction for less money...

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@Johno,

 

First of all, welcome to the forum! 

 

In reading of your experience with your M10, I realized something:  For some M photographers, the Leica M camera was a case of love at first sight.  For others, the M is like an arranged marriage; things were awkward and there was some fumbling at first but with time and familiarity, love did come-a-calling and grew stronger. 

 

I would encourage you to not give up on your M10 - get to know her, make allowances for her shortcomings, learn to recognize and maximize her strengths.  If you give her a chance, my expectation is that you will grow to love her.

 

I learned to use a rangefinder camera by shooting with my first rangefinder, a Hasselblad XPAN before I ever held an M camera in my hands.  I liked toh XPAN and the rangefinder style of camera design and rangefinder photography before I got my first M camera.  My first Leica - a film MP - was SO much better than the XPAN that I couldn't help but love that camera from day one.  Today I have no SLRs, film or digital.  I am 100% rangefinder in my camera choices.

 

Give the M10 some time - learn how to use her and you will come to love her.  JMHO.

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No, I don't mean to be harsh Jaap. However, sometimes you have to be direct about reality. We all know that over the years and long before the do it all digitals came on the market, a lot of people did not bond with a Leica rangefinder. That is still the case today where digital camera expectations can be difficult to achieve with a camera which depends so much on user input as a Leica M.

 

So true. My father wouldn't have them in the house.  Hasselblads, Rolleis, yes. Leicas, no.   So many  years later, when I finally bought an M, I immediately took to it. Perhaps, in retrospect, unsurprising as the old man and I often clashed on any number of things.

 

I suppose its hard for those of us so smitten to understand the point of view of those that aren't, but in a funny twist of fate, having bought a Q this morning after a couple of years with nothing other than an M in hand, I can relate to Johno's sentiment, at least from across the table.  I wouldn't say I'm suffering buyers remorse, but there's no doubt that while the Q is a Leica, and quite a capable camera, its not an M.  I expect I'll come to appreciate it more fully in time, but in its first moments in the fold, I'm finding it more than a bit too fidgety.  Too many buttons, modes  which might make the camera more capable, but equally raise the annoyance level and dull the experience.  The Q's purchase has been a stern reminder for me as to why I've settled on a manual focus, RF camera with an electronic wart stuck on top as my primary vehicle for photographic expression.

 

Obviously a minimalist approach isnt for everyone.  To some degree it strips bare one's own flaws and shortcomings, offering no cover and providing a myriad of ways one can screw up a shot. But for the willing, it is both liberating and joyous to be the sole consciousness behind the photograph. AFAIC, the darker side of modern technology is the ever increasing belief by the designers of it that they know far better than the users, the what and why of how it will be employed. The M design makes no such demands, which I suppose for some makes it a horribly demanding partner.  Certainly, its not a casual date, something you can take out every now and again and expect to get lucky.

 

I'd suggest you give it more time and energy.  Look through these pages and see what others have achieved with an M in their hands. Perhaps it will help inspire a greater sense of what you too can accomplish in time.  It may or may not be the right path, but as you're already on it, perhaps walk it for a while longer and know for sure. 

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