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DXO Mark Leica M10 Score


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#1 Bison

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 20:38

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Presented without comment:

 

https://www.dxomark....sic-reinvented/

 

 


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#2 Nordvik

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 21:43

The testscore is not very interesting, but the comments on this article from DPReview are as always entertaining when then they talk about Leica: https://www.dpreview...t-aps-c-sensors

Edited by Nordvik, 15 December 2017 - 21:44.


#3 marcg

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 21:59

Time for a new firmware upgrade maybe?

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#4 roblumba

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 22:32

How the heck did they test it without any lens? I click Lenses tested and it says that no lens has been mounted on the camera?!



#5 FlashGordonPhotography

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 22:55

Interesting. I have no idea about how they come to their conclusions and scores. Nor do I really care. I do find it strange that the SL records slightly better in high ISO. In my usage (I have both and often use them together) I find the M10 somewhat better at high ISO performance.

They also put it up against a set of 40MP+ sensors. Comparisons to other 24MP sensors show a somewhat different comparison.

I like a great sensor as much as the next guy, but that’s hardly the point of an M10.

Gordon
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#6 Nick Bedford

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 00:43

I think that is a valid comparison, however, as it demonstrates the advanced performance of those sensors despite the fact they are sporting smaller photo sites. While I don't dispute the M10's incredible image quality, I am personally not willing to upgrade from my current M because it doesn't present enough of an improvement for the actual images themselves. I think it would take a 30-40 megapixel sensor for me to upgrade to a new M given my own budget.

 

But as a new buyer of a digital M, the M10 is fantastic, beautiful and modern. I have never regretted spending the money on my M 240 and the M10 would be no different if I was in the market for an M.

 

As a landscape photographer, however, the fact is that I am compromising absolute image quality when I leave even my D810 at home with it's very detailed 36mp raw files. But, like all of us here, it's what the M is which is what makes me choose the M over a DSLR any day of the week.

 

Food for thought. Specs are a curious topic. The M/M10 are a great compromise between high resolution image quality and enjoyment factor :)

 

...
They also put it up against a set of 40MP+ sensors. Comparisons to other 24MP sensors show a somewhat different comparison.
...


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#7 pgh

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 01:04

The score more or less reflects my actual experience and perception of the sensor in real world use - having also owned a D800 and currently owning two of the 42 mp Sonys (a7rii, rx1rii). In short, the sensor in the M10 is not bad, but for 7k, I sure as hell wish it were better - it feels like a step back - both in terms of dynamic range and resolution.

In the days of film, Leicas offered the best image quality (with regards to 35mm at least) because of the lenses. There's no credible argument for this anymore in my experience and opinion. A Zeiss lens on a Sony sensor is pretty much the gold standard now it seems and for me - when looking prints of any meaningful size (A3 or larger) Leica glass doesn't come within reasonable distance of closing that gap. 


Edited by pgh, 16 December 2017 - 01:07.

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#8 FlashGordonPhotography

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 03:36

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The score more or less reflects my actual experience and perception of the sensor in real world use - having also owned a D800 and currently owning two of the 42 mp Sonys (a7rii, rx1rii). In short, the sensor in the M10 is not bad, but for 7k, I sure as hell wish it were better - it feels like a step back - both in terms of dynamic range and resolution.

In the days of film, Leicas offered the best image quality (with regards to 35mm at least) because of the lenses. There's no credible argument for this anymore in my experience and opinion. A Zeiss lens on a Sony sensor is pretty much the gold standard now it seems and for me - when looking prints of any meaningful size (A3 or larger) Leica glass doesn't come within reasonable distance of closing that gap. 

 

Everything you say is entirely reasonable. Heck, my A7R2 sits in a closet alongside all of my Leicas when I want big prints or shoot landscapes. 35mm format seems to me to be a jack of all trades and master of none, except maybe the thin DOF wars. However, there's no denying that the files are great.

 

However, as a counter I would argue that if you can't get a decent shot from the M10, it isn't the camera. Most people (including me 90% of the time) don't need more resolution and don't take advantage of any perceived DR increases. The M's excel as cameras that *want* to be used. I have too many cameras. And although the Sony's produce very close to the top IQ in their class I almost never use them. My A7R2 is a backup to my SL. I like the Sony files but use the camera because I have to, not because I want to. people bang on about how the SL is too big, too expensive and has an average sensor but I get what I need from it, or an M10, every time. If I need more I skip the incremental increase to a Sony and go straight to miniMF.

 

I think the trick is to stop worrying about what camera *X* might do better in a lab than the camera I have in my hand and worry about how to exploit the most out of what I have with me by learning how to get the best from it. The prints on my walls are a mix. I have X1D shots next to shots from my phone, next to M10 and S007 images. My favourite landscape shot I've taken was from a M9 and  cheap as chips CV lens. People who come to my home stop and look at that print more than any other.

 

All cameras have limitations. At some point the D850 will run out of DR and we'll need to make a decision what to clip. That decision happens in a different place with an M10 but it still happens. To me it's like worrying about a lens you left at home. You don't have it so stop worrying about it and shoot the infinite number of things that are available to what you have with you.

 

Scores are interesting but only a small part of what makes a camera great. The M10 and SL have much bigger limitations than their sensors. Long exposure noise reduction, short exposure times (for the M, M10, S, CL and TL), average flash support and some bizarre firmware choices. But mostly leica still make the most usable cameras available today. I'd rather have that than a D850 any day.

 

Gordon


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#9 david strachan

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 03:47

Good post Gordon...sensible as always.

 

Have a great Christmas and a super 2018.

 

...



#10 Gobert

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 08:17

I don’t think Leica enthousiasts buy their gear because if the DxO score. Nikon and Canon buyers do.
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#11 rramesh

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 08:41

This is what I understand. DXO Mark will help me narrow my choices to 2 and 4.

  1. A poor camera - A lousy photograph 
  2. A great camera - A lousy photograph
  3. A poor camera - A great photograph
  4. A great camera - A great photograph 

I have an M9-P and I think my photographs are OK for me.


Edited by rramesh, 16 December 2017 - 08:42.

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#12 StS

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 08:46

Well, it is indisputed that Sony currently offers the best sensors in the market and I'm sure the a7R is a phantastic camera.

 

I still have pictures hanging on the wall, which I took with the M8, with an inadequate sensor by today's standard which was good enough though, when I took the picture. My conclusion is rather, that the image quality of sensors has reached a level now, where improvements are on an academic level now for most situations. Seeing the files coming out of the M10, I don't see, where I miss out. Good to see, though, that there is still improvement in the industry.

 

Even in the film days, Leica wasn't the gold standard, for the last bit of quality in people-sized posters, MF or LF was needed. Back then, film was the limitation.

 

Stefan


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#13 ericborgstrom

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 14:12

Of course we can take great picture with our Leica Ms.

But we know that Leica s sensor technology is not up to the standard of its optics. I think it should be.

Why should Leica accept but the best?

You could argue that DXO measures are not fully relevant. Fine, read my first sentence again. But…


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#14 pgk

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 14:24

Well, it is indisputed that Sony currently offers the best sensors in the market and I'm sure the a7R is a phantastic camera.

 

I would dispute this. A sensor alone doesn't make the photograph. The camera is a package and despite owning Sony cameras I still much, much prefer using the M9s which means that they take the better photographs :D so their sensors are, to me anyway, 'better'. I use the Sony underwater - some things the M9s cannot do - and a year on I'm still fighting their awful interface.


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#15 firststream

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 16:41

How many times have Leicaphiles said the M experience was all about the lens? I use the M models because of the viewfinder; seeing outside of the framelines is for me, the best way to compose a quick and spontaneous photograph. For me, it was never about the optical quality of the lens, but the rangefinder experience.

 

Still, for those who still believe it's all about the lenses, where do they sit on this DXO review? Are they satisfied that their expensive lenses use a sensor that under-performs relative to other cameras? Leitz says that the 26MP sensor is the sweet spot; that they aren't interested in providing higher MP sensors with attendant higher resolution for their gold-standard lenses. Restricting megapixels means cutting off optimal resolution, which seems to go against the desire of purists who purchase Leica lenses.

 

As it goes for resolution, so it goes for ISO, dynamic range, colour depth, etc.. Leitz isn't exactly hobbling the image quality of their lenses with this sensor, but they aren't doing them any favours, either.


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#16 marcg

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 16:59

I don’t think Leica enthousiasts buy their gear because if the DxO score. Nikon and Canon buyers do.

 

I'm not at all sure that this is correct.
 
I suspect that a lot of the people who buy Nikon and Canon, do so because they can afford them, because they want autofocus, because they wanted DLSR, because they want optical stabilisation – but maybe mostly because they can afford them.
 
I doubt whether many camera purchases are really bothered by DxO scores – even if they know about them.
 
I think that by and large DxO scores are important to professionals and to geeks.

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#17 Mark II

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 17:03

Looking at the measurements, the M10 looks like it probably uses the same sensor as the M/240, but with some improvements to the readout circuitry to reduce high-ISO noise and shadow banding. It is clearly not derived from the SL sensor.

 

One observation is that ISO 100 is not a true native ISO setting, but is only about 1/3 stop below ISO 200 with the difference presumably made up by digitally pulling the exposure.

 

I wonder if this accounts for why some people have reported that the M10 has less highlight headroom compared to the M/240. If it is correct, there will be slightly more highlight recoverability at ISO 200 than 100 (although 100 will still give slightly better overall image quality).



#18 anickpick

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 17:09

DXO measures some aspects of quality and neglect others.

 

For my uses, the Leica M 10 has a better sensor than the Sony A7rii:

They are both great at lower ISO, but the Sony starts showing noise patterns that I do not like at ISO 800.

From ISO 800 to about ISO 6400 I much prefer the outcome of the Leica M10 by a very clear margin.

Yes, you can push the files of the Sony in post by 5 stops and the files do not fall apart. This is astonishing, but nothing I ever needed or wanted to do.

If you have to push your file more than 2 stops in post, something went terribly wrong when the picture was taken.

If you need ISO higher than 10000, Sony's sensor is better.


Edited by anickpick, 16 December 2017 - 17:11.


#19 StS

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 17:35

Moving from the M8 to the M10 (or adding the M10 rather), I discoved that I have to focus more carefully. Some people, who use the 42 MP Sony report that it needs a tripod to fully utilize it's sensor, otherwise, inspecting the pixels, they reveal, horribile dictu, unsharp exposure of hand-held images (remedy: don't look at pixels, they seldom are attractive in themselves). Camera reviews mention, that some rather short exposure times reveal slightly unsharp images, since the super-brilliant sensor also detect resonance frequencies in the camera body.

 

We might reach a point, where we lose at the other end what we have won on the one.

 

And then, how can one purchase the best of the sensors in the knowledge that the successor sensor will be even better and all the substandard pictures taken with the old one have to be re-taken? (  ;) )

 

Stefan


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#20 pgk

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 17:59

I think that by and large DxO scores are important to professionals and to geeks.

 

I currently know no professionals using the very latest equipment. Generally speaking pros' equipment has to be 'fit for purpose' and 'make economic sense'. The latest and best often exceeds the first and doesn't add up for the second'.

 

I suspect that DXO scores are reinforcement for those who need to know that they are using the very best on offer.


Edited by pgk, 16 December 2017 - 18:00.

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