Early 1951 Summicron Collapsible Screw Mount Lens

[box86rowh]

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I have the chance to get a very early 1951 Summicron collapsible lens and was wondering what the earliest known serial number is? This one is 9205**

 

Thanks!

[alan mcfall]

Production starts at 920001,  prototypes were Summitar *  ,perhaps a few others.  The earliest i have are 920109 and 920218.  The earliest lots are 920xxx, 921xxx 922xxx and 993xxx.  It has been reported that the lenses containing Lanthanum ( slightly radioactive) glass  occur up to serial 922072.  I tested my earliest lenses and they do show quite a spike on a standard Geiger Mueller counter apparatus.  Maybe others have a more definitive end date for radioactive lenses.I often see advertised much higher serial lenses such as 993,994,995 and even over 1 million as radioactive, but I would be skeptical until they were tested. Your potential lens should easily qualify.

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[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Alan,

 

Thank you, as usual, for the information.

 

I think that if you check your sources: You will find that the earlier, slightly radioactive glass elements, were made with Thorium.

 

The later Lanthanum glass (LaK9) elements were used to equal the optical qualities of the Thorium glass elements without being radioactive.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[alan mcfall]

Correct about the glass. I went off memory rather than checking.  Thanks.

[willeica]

According to Thiele, the first production batch of 2,100 was from 920,001 to 922,100 and it is attributed to 1952. Before someone gets too excited over the year, we all know that trying to attribute Leica serial numbers to particular years is not an exact science.

 

William

[Kolossus]

I have a Summicron collapsible no. 1023108. It is probably the same batch as this one in the video.

Thoriumoxide glass seemingly was used to at least this serial numbers.

 

Quote from the video desciption:

 

"Lens: Ernst Leitz GmbH Wetzlar Summicron f = 5cm Nr 1023xxx (M39/LTM mount -- 1953?) "

 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Kolossus

[box86rowh]

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Thanks for the replies everyone, I am not sure if I will go for it as it is in an auction setting not on ebay and will most likely exceed my meager budget!

Edited December 13, 2017 by box86rowh

[luigi bertolotti]

Production starts at 920001,  prototypes were Summitar *  ,perhaps a few others.  The earliest i have are 920109 and 920218....

... and my one is just a bit younger...

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Alan has BIG records of various lenses...  , but, well , the 1st batch of Summicron was also really BIG...

[luigi bertolotti]

I have a Summicron collapsible no. 1023108. It is probably the same batch as this one in the video.

Thoriumoxide glass seemingly was used to at least this serial numbers.

 

 

 

That's consistent with the usually very trustable source named Marco Cavina : http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/50mm_Leica_a_telemetro/00_pag.htm

 

<English resume of the relevant infos>

 

New Leitz-developed LaK9 glass introduced AROUND #993.000 , replacing former Chance Brothers (England) glass - Thorium based.

 

The first batches of LaK9 (La=Lanthanum) were not so highly refined and did have various percentages of Thorium, so that items from 993.000 to 1.030.000 do have various levels of residual radioactivity, depending on Lanthanum "contamination" with Thorium.

Edited December 14, 2017 by luigi bertolotti

[Pecole]

The earliest Summicron 50 I had in my Fontenelle Collection was serialled 993930, but I had a proyotype "Summitar* nº812246.

[alan mcfall]

According to Thiele, the first production batch of 2,100 was from 920,001 to 922,100 and it is attributed to 1952. Before someone gets too excited over the year, we all know that trying to attribute Leica serial numbers to particular years is not an exact science.

 

William

Yes, Thiele does show 922100 to 923000 to be reported as missing or not listed in the records.  But I have identified 9 lenses that fall in that range, so again there can always be improvements to what we think we know.  Totally agree that serial number and year correlation has many discrepancies.

[wlaidlaw]

Does anyone know why Leica kept making the Summitar hex diaphragm version, after the considerably superior Summicron was in production. Was it simply to use up stock of tubes, lens blanks and the Summar bowed hex diaphragms? Was there a substantial price difference between the two lenses in 1953? My father wanted to buy a IIIf and Summicron during a trip to New York in late 1953 but funds would only stretch to the IIf and Summitar I still have. 

 

Wilson

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Wilson,

 

Are you writing about the years that number blocks were assigned in? Or the actual year that the lenses were manufactured in?

 

Sometimes the 2 can be quite different.

 

On top of that: There are all kinds of anomalies & exceptions in Leitz production.

 

The WIKI at the top of this page writes that In 1970 Leitz made some Version II, 35mm Summicrons in Screw Mount.

 

And:

 

In 1974 Leitz made some Version III, Bayonet Mount, 35mm Summicrons with "goggles" for M3's.

 

And ask Luigi about the anomalies of the 800mm Telyt-S's production dates.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[willeica]

Does anyone know why Leica kept making the Summitar hex diaphragm version, after the considerably superior Summicron was in production. Was it simply to use up stock of tubes, lens blanks and the Summar bowed hex diaphragms? Was there a substantial price difference between the two lenses in 1953? My father wanted to buy a IIIf and Summicron during a trip to New York in late 1953 but funds would only stretch to the IIf and Summitar I still have. 

 

Wilson

 

The highest SN I can find for a Summitar in Thiele is 992,000 attributed to 1952, which is not that long after the Summicron was introduced. Perhaps Leica was using up parts as you suggest, but it is difficult to be that precise about associating SNs with dates. You may recall that I pointed out in another thread that Leica had changed its publicity material at around this time by just changing the name written on the picture of a lens from Summitar to Summicron.

 

As regards the camera purchased by your father, I have a IIf Red Dial camera  with 1,000th top speed and it is a lovely camera to use. I prefer it to the IIIfs which I have. It has a lovely little pad under my right hand in place of that knobbly slow speed dial that I never use.

 

William

Edited December 17, 2017 by willeica

[wlaidlaw]

My father's/my Summitar's serial number is 980100, dating it to 1952. It must have been unsold stock in the camera shop in Brooklyn. He had to bargain quite hard to get it within his budget. The ironic thing is that he could never get on with the IIf's side by side viewfinder and rangefinder, compared with his IIIa and preferred his Summar to the Summitar, so it spent most of its life sitting in a drawer. When the IIf (serial number 652126) came to me at the end of the 90's, I found it was barely used and the Summitar was mint. It did need a CLA as the grease had dried and hardened in the shutter and RF mechanism. 

 

Wilson

 

PS I have a pair of the 1999 LTM 50mm lenses, the Summicron V and Summilux III. 

Edited December 17, 2017 by wlaidlaw

[willeica]

My father's/my Summitar's serial number is 980100, dating it to 1952. It must have been unsold stock in the camera shop in Brooklyn. He had to bargain quite hard to get it within his budget. The ironic thing is that he could never get on with the IIf's side by side viewfinder and rangefinder, compared with his IIIa and preferred his Summar to the Summitar, so it spent most of its life sitting in a drawer. When the IIf (serial number 652126) came to me at the end of the 90's, I found it was barely used and the Summitar was mint. It did need a CLA as the grease had dried and hardened in the shutter and RF mechanism. 

 

Wilson

 

PS I have a pair of the 1999 LTM 50mm lenses, the Summicron V and Summilux III. 

 

Your father would not have been alone in that. A lot of people preferred the widely separated rangefinder and viewfinder of the IIIa to the close together ones on the IIIb. I know somebody in London who still prefers the IIIa set up. I am easy about this subject, provided I do not forget which I have on the camera I am using. For me, the most liberating set up is using zone focus with just a viewfinder on a I Model A or a Standard.

 

William