CL - bugs and other issues

[jaapv]

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What scorn and defense may I ask? I see none in this thread, nor any lack of respect. I find it quite normal, when somebody finds a fault with his camera, to try and establish whether it is an individual fault, an user error or a general fault (AKA bug). This thread excludes the general bug theory.

Fanboyism? My camera works, Wilson's does, presumably others do. Yours does not. Facts, not opinion.

 

Your experience at the store shows that it is indeed an individual camera fault, possibly a faulty electronic part, maybe a faulty batch.

 

Now any other "victims" can take appropriate action straight away, without sitting around and scratching their heads. I would say the forum has fulfilled its function pretty well here.

[wlaidlaw]

My bug can be reproduced at will after a total reset of the camera to avoid variables referred to by Wilson above.

 

Just exported my profiles to the card then reset the camera. Still working perfectly to remove self timer. I did have to save a profile before I could do this as all the profiles are empty other than default, after a reset. I then reimported my profiles after I had checked all working properly. 

 

Wilson

 

PS I should have added: Sure enough when I pressed the FN button quickly after resetting the camera, Self Timer was the active item. I changed this to White Balance by a long press of the FN button, scrolling down to White Balance and selecting this, then saving this to a new profile. I then made the new profile active before I tried and succeeded in removing Self Timer from the options for the FN button. 

Edited January 14, 2018 by wlaidlaw

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[lct]

OK Wilson but you did not do exactly what i did with respect. Just reset totally the camera w/o saving any profile and try to disable the dreaded Self Timer item w/o doing anything else if i may ask. What do you see then? 

[jaapv]

So we have established:

a. One cannot delete an active item from a menu, the item needs to be deactivated first.

b. There is a limit to the number of items that can be deleted (8), as there is a limit to the number of items that can be added (8).

c. The default profile cannot be altered, changes must be stored as UserX.

d. A (small?) number of cameras show a fault, in that certain items, mostly the self-timer, cannot be deleted.

e. O.I.S. can be set in advance, but will only be activated when an appropriate lens is mounted.

[jaapv]

OK Wilson but you did not do exactly what i did with respect. Just reset totally the camera w/o saving any profile and try to disable the dreaded Self Timer item w/o doing anything else if i may ask. What do you see then?

If the self-timer were not deleted in this scenario, it could not be saved to another user. See hteasly's post. You need to consult your dealer.

[hteasley]

What scorn and defense may I ask? I see none in this thread, nor any lack of respect. I find it quite normal, when somebody finds a fault with his camera, to try and establish whether it is an individual fault, an user error or a general fault (AKA bug). This thread excludes the general bug theory.

 

Your experience at the store shows that it is indeed an individual camera fault, possibly a faulty electronic part, maybe a faulty batch.

 

Now any other "victims" can take appropriate action straight away, without sitting around and scratching their heads. I would say the forum has fulfilled its function pretty well here.

You are routinely doubting what people are saying they are experiencing, repeatedly posting "works for me!" posts to various people having issues that you're not having, which is just passive aggressive and unhelpful. Other posters like thighslapper are asking people specific questions about what they've done to create or try to solve their problems, you're just editorializing against the experiences people are having, and have a strong note of unwarranted condescension in many of your answers.

 

"Of course" you can't change the default profile, you said, as if the poster was stupid. In fact, if you're in default profile, which you are if you just turn the camera on and start using it (which is a virtue that is often praised) you can edit all sorts of settings (just not premanently save them; they still remain edited after turning off and on). So the experience of not being able to turn one specific thing off isn't the experience of a stupid user, it's a badly communicating UI. It reads as disfunctional behavior, for the user has behaved identically when turning other things off. The UI doesn't indicate that such a thing as a default profile even exists, so chiding someone for thinking they can edit things while in it is condescending and rude.

 

"Cannot remove active item" in no way adequately communicates "cannot remove the menu item currently selected for Fn button single-press". That users are having an issue with this has gotten nothing but incredulity from you.

 

I've owned a Dlux4, X1, M8, M9, M240 and Q; I have an M10, CL, and T (that I'll only manage to sell for peanuts, with the TL2 and CL out). Those are just the digital Leicas... And I've worked in software and designed UIs for 28 years. So I'll tell you, there are issues in communication that are present with the CL UI that are worse than other Leica UIs, and your strong attempts to deflect and minimize critical user experiences in a thread dedicated to exactly that is destructive to what you're defending.

 

A good moderator (and advocate for Leica) would direct people to FAQs, like lct did, or ask questions to figure out what steps people are taking, like thighslapper. Not "here's a screenshot that shows I did it".

Edited January 14, 2018 by hteasley

[jaapv]

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You are free to contribute to the FAQ. It is not moderator-run, but user-fed.

I'm sure you are aware that fault-finding includes questioning, not extrapolating a single fault to a general condemnation.

 

For the record, moderators on this forum are normal discussing members. See my signature.

[hteasley]

To expand on something I just said, I would ask anyone having the Self-Timer problem, "What do you see when you single-press the Fn button?"

 

If you see the Self-Timer, then it is "active" by virtue of being "currently assigned as the single-press function of the Fn button".

 

This is a definition of "active" that makes me want to swear. This is a novel definition, and very confusing for, we see, at least a few folks.

 

If you populate the Fn menu as you wish, then use the long-press functionality of the menu to reassign what a single-press of the Fn button does to something other than Self Timer, then you can go back to editing the Fn button menu to remove Self Timer.

 

This is bad in a number of ways:

 

1. Almost no tech device consumers use has a "edit option, use feature, re-edit option" flow to edit a control. That is very counter-intutive.
2. Self Timer as "active" means, to most people, that you've started the Self Timer! If you haven't, then what is "active" about it?
3. It passively (not actively) informs the user the Fn button must have an assignment. Why? What if I find myself accidentally nosing it, or my most comfortable camera hold has me pressing it accidentally, and I want it off? My OMD E-M1 allows me to turn all sorts of buttons off completely, and I like it.
4. It substitutes an error message for helping me do my expressed desire. Saying "you can't" is much worse than saying, "To do that, you must do this. Do this now?" In this case, if the Fn button must have a function, if should ask me what I want the "active" function to be if I'm trying to remove the "active" one, and let me pick a new "active" item.
5. There is nothing in the camera, or in the default usage of the camera, that informs the user of the existence of Fn long-press. You have to know long-press to edit the Fn button fully. This combines invisible UI with order-dependent design, which is awful.
6. The error message takes the full screen to give an overly terse 1-line message.

It's poorly designed, and should be improved.

Edited January 14, 2018 by hteasley

[jaapv]

Leica's translating skills have always been doubtful. It is quite clear in German

[lct]

If the self-timer were not deleted in this scenario, it could not be saved to another user. See hteasly's post. You need to consult your dealer.

 

Not sure to understand what you mean. The self timer statute is that of the default settings of the camera when it has been reset. No variability, no subjectivity, just facts. There is an alleged bug reported by myself here. You cannot say it does not exist in your camera w/o setting the latter the same way as i did in the conditions of the alleged bug. Just answer the same question i asked Wilson above and i'm sure we can move ahead in the right direction. 

[jaapv]

Doing that removes the selftimer from the Fn menu, leaving an empty space.

[hteasley]

One final note: long-press menu is a terrible UI convention for the Fn button. This convention is good for a wheel, not a single button.

[jaapv]

Well, I fear that it is what it is - the final judge of an UI is the user. So far most appear to be happy.

[thighslapper]

I have to agree with LCT that there is an issue with 'Self-Timer' ...... although I suspect the behaviour he describes is a result 'Self-Timer' as a setting (even when set to 'off') not being de-selected when changing profiles. 

 

As I pointed out ..... if you have 'Self Timer' set at 2 sec and change profile it stays set at 2 sec and is not overwritten by the new profiles parameters. I'm sure this behaviour gives a clue as to what is wrong in the firmware. 

 

Can someone confirm this (the self timer persistence) is a general feature and not just me ..... 

 

I'm rather wary of replicating LCT's 'bug' via his instructions as from his description it was a persistent issue he couldn't get rid of once it appeared ..... 

 

As for all the grumpiness over not believing and fan-boyism ...... I would point out that this process is exactly how faults and bugs are run to ground ..... often the causes are multi-factorial or only occur in certain circumstances. If it becomes apparent that you are the only on affected and are confident you are neither deluded nor incompetent than it is sensible to assume you have a faulty camera. If multiple users eventually find the same problem then, fair enough, you can call it a 'bug' or 'product characteristic' ... depending on whether the makers can be arsed to sort it .....

 

Having done a fair bit of beta testing it often took us days (or weeks, if ever) to establish repeatability and clarify just what the bugs and issues were. There was frequently disbelief but it was never acrimonious ..... . Leica usually listen and fix ... and a fair bit quicker than they used to .....

 

As for the UI ..... like the SL, once I have customised it to suit I have no major quibble with the way it functions. In my eyes it's not wrong ..... just different. 

Edited January 14, 2018 by thighslapper

[jaapv]

I think that the leading design parameter was a minimum of buttons. That would necessitate a short press-long press system.

[Guest VVJ]

I can actually delete the Self Timer now from the FN button.

 

When you turn on the camera and haven't pressed the FN button yet (or any other button for that matter) Leica already considers the Self Timer to be active (from an FN button point of view) if it is the first one in the FN button list, even though the Self Timer itself is also not active.

 

IMO not exactly an intuitive implementation but it is what it is.

 

I personally would like to disable the FN button altogether but that apparently is not possible.  

[Guest VVJ]

I think that the leading design parameter was a minimum of buttons. 

 

Why not give people the option then to disable buttons altogether.  The FN button is not needed for anything.  The T/TL2 proves that.  You only have the left and right wheel. 

[wlaidlaw]

OK Wilson but you did not do exactly what i did with respect. Just reset totally the camera w/o saving any profile and try to disable the dreaded Self Timer item w/o doing anything else if i may ask. What do you see then? 

 

No of course not. You cannot alter the default profile. You have to set up another profile and delete from that. The default profile is like a reset to manufacturers setting and must remain unchanged. 

 

PS If I have reset the camera - it is reset. The fact that I previously saved my profiles to the SD card is irrelevant. They cannot be accessed until I reimport them. I am not going to delete my carefully set up profiles to satisfy someone's curiosity - sorry but no! 

Edited January 14, 2018 by wlaidlaw

[lct]

No of course not. You cannot alter the default profile. You have to set up another profile and delete from that. The default profile is like a reset to manufacturers setting and must remain unchanged. 

PS If I have reset the camera - it is reset. The fact that I previously saved my profiles to the SD card is irrelevant. They cannot be accessed until I reimport them. I am not going to delete my carefully set up profiles to satisfy someone's curiosity - sorry but no! 

 

We cannot *save* a user profile as Default Profile of course but under this very Default Profile we can disable easily the White Balance item of the Fn Button can't we. Same for Exposure metering, Exposure compensation, Photo File Format, Scene mode, etc. But i (we?) cannot disable Self Timer the same way. Just a fact. So either there is a bug here, which sounds the more obvious explanation to me, or this is a strange feature of the camera, to say the least, and Leica should explain how to disable Self Timer the same easy way as White Balance, Exposure metering, Exposure compensation, etc.  BTW your profiles are saved in the "SETTINGS.LCS" file of your SD card as you know. This file is easy to save on a hard disk or any other volume and it is as easy to import the profiles of same file in the camera. FWIW.

Edited January 14, 2018 by lct

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[lct]

[...] The FN button is not needed for anything.  The T/TL2 proves that.  You only have the left and right wheel. 

 

Matter of tastes as always. The FN Button is needed by yours truly to the point that i'd like the same on my M240.