CL - bugs and other issues

[hteasley]

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 Sounds like you are correct ...... but have you tried a full system reset just in case it is firmware based .... ?

 

I have full reset the camera several times. In the course of which, I have come to hate how the customize controls menus work, because they're not intuitive at all. I normally love the Leica menus, but this particular one is terrible: there's no indication about what happens when the Fn button has multiple actions assigned to it, and things like Self Timer can't be removed from it, that have made me very unhappy in trying to run through it. It doesn't inspire confidence the way their menus normally do. Options like OIS shouldn't even be there, or at least appear greyed out, if a non-OIS lens is mounted... there are several things in the menus I hope they update.

[jev]

When shooting with Leica CL and Tri-Elmar 16-18-21/4 it records only 16mm value, even though you select 18 or 21 mm

this is strange, as even Leica M9 supports proper Focal Lens Values, I think it's a bug

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[jaapv]

I have full reset the camera several times. In the course of which, I have come to hate how the customize controls menus work, because they're not intuitive at all. I normally love the Leica menus, but this particular one is terrible: there's no indication about what happens when the Fn button has multiple actions assigned to it, and things like Self Timer can't be removed from it, that have made me very unhappy in trying to run through it. It doesn't inspire confidence the way their menus normally do. Options like OIS shouldn't even be there, or at least appear greyed out, if a non-OIS lens is mounted... there are several things in the menus I hope they update.

 

The reason that OIS is not grayed out is that it must be possible  to set the camera to OIS even if there is no suitable lens attached, to enable the camera to activate the function as soon as such a lens is mounted, without the user needing to delve into the menu during active shooting..

 

I don't really see your problem with the Fn button; You can switch the functions to on or off in the main menu, resulting in a list that will appear with a long press. The button will then take the function that you select.

I put toggle EVF/LCD under it in my standard user setting.

 

The camera is meant to have fixed values, chosen by the user, under the buttons and wheels and other, less used functions selectable in the menu. It is simplest to put the various configurations you would like to have in the user settings, instead of attempting to scroll through all the button and wheel options during shooting - the last only leads to frustration.

 

Why do you do full resets? It is usually enough to revert to the default user menu.

[helged]

When shooting with Leica CL and Tri-Elmar 16-18-21/4 it records only 16mm value, even though you select 18 or 21 mm

this is strange, as even Leica M9 supports proper Focal Lens Values, I think it's a bug

Not a bug; the SL behaves similarly.

 

Leica rangefinders (the M-system) get info about the the focal length through mechanical coupling. This coupling is not present on the L-mount bodies, so no info about changes in the focal length. The (fixed) 6-bit marking transfers one focal length, only.

[hteasley]

The reason that OIS is not grayed out is that it must be possible  to set the camera to OIS even if there is no suitable lens attached, to enable the camera to activate the function as soon as such a lens is mounted, without the user needing to delve into the menu during active shooting..

 

I don't really see your problem with the Fn button; You can switch the functions to on or off in the main menu, resulting in a list that will appear with a long press. The button will then take the function that you select.

I put toggle EVF/LCD under it in my standard user setting.

 

The camera is meant to have fixed values, chosen by the user, under the buttons and wheels and other, less used functions selectable in the menu. It is simplest to put the various configurations you would like to have in the user settings, instead of attempting to scroll through all the button and wheel options during shooting - the last only leads to frustration.

 

Why do you do full resets? It is usually enough to revert to the default user menu.

I did full resets to try to fix the EVF issue, in case any setting I had made was somehow causing it.

 

The Fn button does not appear to allow me to not have Self Timer as an option. One of my attempts to work around my issue was to set it to only be EVF/LCD, and nothing else, to at least get the screen to appear consistently with a press of the button, but the interface did not let me unselect Self Timer. Which I never use.

 

The OIS menu option is bad. It should not say "Off" if you have a non-OIS lens selected, it should say "N/A" to indicate it isn't currently available for the mounted lens. As it is, it looks usable, which is bad UI. Looking at mine just now, I see that OIS is set to "on" but greyed out, with an M lens mounted on the adapter. It has never had an OIS lens on it, and I have never set that option. That's sloppy eight ways to Sunday. And the long press functionality is invisible UI: great if you know it, but good invisible UI is intuitive. I spent a long time figuring out how the multiple assignments worked on the button before I stumbled across it. That's the opposite of normal Leica obvious UI.

 

Your explanation of the logic of the setup is unneeded. I'm saying that it's inferior and opaque, going against a few bog-standard UI conventions that would serve it better. I have done a fair bit of UX/UI design, and I know whereof I speak. Leica menus are generally better than this.

Edited January 11, 2018 by hteasley

[jaapv]

The point is that it is settable and should be. Maybe it should have been named "suitable to use OIS lens" or something like that.

I wonder what you are doing with that self timer; I just switched it to "off" without any problem. Main Menu --> customize control--> Fn button, scroll down. There is the switch.

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[wlaidlaw]

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I don't think the M8/9240/10 does recognise the different focal lengths on the WATE lens, as there is no mechanical coupling of the focal length selection into the camera body (unlike the 28-35-50 MATE, where there is via the frame selector tab). The WATE is a wide angle zoom with pre-set/marked focal distance stops. Unlike the MATE, you can use the WATE between the focal length stops to get for example, a 17mm or 19mm lens. 

 

Wilson

[thighslapper]

'The OIS option is bad' ........ are you serious ???

 

It is either on or off. When you attach an OIS lens it will either work or it won't. Leica OIS lenses are switchable only in-camera.

 

It can't get simpler or more intuitive than that. Even though I am getting old I can still remember which of my lenses have OIS and don't need the camera to remind me.

 

My basic saved profile is set as 'on' so if I use my 24-90 or 90-280 it will work.

 

I have a separate profile for tripod/landscape where it is off and the self timer function activated. 

 

Why not save the settings you want as profiles and then either set Fn to activate/choose them or have them as a single item in the Favourites menu that appears when you press menu ?

 

Leica appear to have made life difficult for themselves with this camera by reducing the button numbers but not compensating by invoking dual press (long/short like the SL) functions with them all...... or using the touch screen for some functions. I concede there are some odd decisions dictated by this choice and it does appear as a work in progress rather than a final solution.

Edited January 11, 2018 by thighslapper

[lct]

[...] The Fn button does not appear to allow me to not have Self Timer as an option. One of my attempts to work around my issue was to set it to only be EVF/LCD, and nothing else, to at least get the screen to appear consistently with a press of the button, but the interface did not let me unselect Self Timer. Which I never use. [...]

 

You may wish to take a look at this brilliant post here: How to remove Self Timer from the Fn functions.

[hteasley]

You may wish to take a look at this brilliant post here: How to remove Self Timer from the Fn functions.

Thank you. Having been a professional UI designer, that is heartbreakingly badly set up.

[hteasley]

'The OIS option is bad' ........ are you serious ???

 

I have had different lenses mounted, none being OIS, and have seen the option in two completely different states, and I've never touched it. I've seen it highlighted with OFF in red, I've seen it greyed with ON in grey.

 

Greyed, it says it's on. It's not on and I can't change it.

 

Active, I can turn it on and have it still be off with no indication that it is off.

 

That's a UI disaster.

 

I like the camera very much, and this is only my 10th Leica or so, so this call is coming from inside the house. These menus need updating.

[hteasley]

The point is that it is settable and should be. 

My point is they've done it badly.

[lct]

Thank you. Having been a professional UI designer, that is heartbreakingly badly set up.

 

I can understand this but how would you compare digital Ms from this viewpoint? Even this amateur non UI designer is scratching his head desperately with the M240 menus from time to time. My hair feel safer with the CL but they may be wrong . 

[scott kirkpatrick]

I agree with the general feeling of wrong-headedness about the CL UI, although I have been able to put it out of the way and enjoy the camera.  The OIS and video stabilization is a good example.  Changing one changes the other (without your notice), and they can only be changed when they are live.  I have only one OIS lens (90-280) and don't use it often, so on both the SL and CL, I want to leave the two functions ON but greyed out, waiting for their chance when I use this lens.  If I somehow get them OFF, I don't want to have to drag the big OIS lens out of the cupboard to reset it.  Also, a careful reading of the two sentences in the manual about video stabilization did not correct my initial impression that the stabilization could be offered as a software option in the codec, as I believe is done in some other cameras.

[thighslapper]

I have had different lenses mounted, none being OIS, and have seen the option in two completely different states, and I've never touched it. I've seen it highlighted with OFF in red, I've seen it greyed with ON in grey.

 

Greyed, it says it's on. It's not on and I can't change it.

 

Active, I can turn it on and have it still be off with no indication that it is off.

 

That's a UI disaster.

 

I like the camera very much, and this is only my 10th Leica or so, so this call is coming from inside the house. These menus need updating.

 

apologies ...... I did not fully understand what you were getting at with OIS ...... as Scott says there is clearly a bug in the Firmware with regard to OIS activation/deactivation. 

 

however ..... if the settings are saved within a profile they do change irrespective of what lens is attached.

[hteasley]

I can understand this but how would you compare digital Ms from this viewpoint? Even this amateur non UI designer is scratching his head desperately with the M240 menus from time to time. My hair feel safer with the CL but they may be wrong . 

I have found the M menus generally better. There are some bits that could be better: when you want to set up minimum shutter/maximum ISO for Aperture priority, the menus could be nicer.

 

I can see what has gone on with the menus: they are striving for elegant simplicity, and as much consistency as they can get. So it's ON or OFF, with no other options like N/A or what have you. And they're committed to each menu item and value on one text line only. And they have an strong aversion to modal dialogues, which is good, but it needs improvement. If the setting for one option is affected by an option elsewhere in the settings, and you're trying to set it when it can't be, you need a dialogue to say why, not just a "you can't" error.

 

For some things, this simple elegance is harmful elegance. Sometimes, simplifying things makes them more confusing.

[lct]

[...] For some things, this simple elegance is harmful elegance. Sometimes, simplifying things makes them more confusing.

 

+1 but the way i use it at least, i.e. with M lenses, the CL deserves very little criticism on this ground IMHO.

[wlaidlaw]

I have actually found the CL menu very quick to learn. Yes there are a few quirks that need ironing out, with my pet hate being the way you select a different sub menu for the FN button. Long press, scroll to select what you want, press set button but then have to press the FN button again to get to your selected item. After 10 days or so, I now never need to refer to the manual. With my Olympus EP-5, after over two years, I still need to refer to the manual to do various things. My EP-5 will now be sold off, as the CL has totally replaced it. The only thing I will miss is the 5 axis stabilisation for use with my long zoom, 75-300 (150-600 EFOV), which is a TL lens I would like to see Leica making with OIS.

 

Wilson

[jaapv]

With the difference that I did not even bother downloading the manual, I can only echo your thoughts - including the lens wish

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[scott kirkpatrick]

In the world of computer-aided flying, where UI standards are essential for safety, the pattern of double-press to select, then act is accepted.  Like the CL's use of as few buttons as possible, flying with a GPS giving the orders is head-scratching at first, but becomes automatic.  Here's the basic example:

 

I'm cruising along, and decide to change my destination and land at a new place:

 

Open a "navigation" page onscreen

scroll to the nearest airport

push "enter" ( to select)

push  "enter" again (to make the whole panel in front of you dedicated to the task of flying to that airport).

 

Does that sound familiar? 

The final double press becomes second nature.