Leica Noctilux-M f1.25 75 mm introduced

[Exodies]

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Jono, I really would know if you think if the Noctilux at 2,0 is better, as in boké and sharpness,  than the summicron 75 at 2,0?

I do wish people would stop using “better” where there isn’t a measurement and a scale of generally accepted good to bad.

[anickpick]

Quality cannot be measured.

Reality is anything but linear.

The human mind is limited.

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[pgk]

I do wish people would stop using “better” where there isn’t a measurement and a scale of generally accepted good to bad.

 

Potential measure: currently a 75mm Summilux in good condition costs about £2500 - therefore it needs to be/should be/must be/IS 4x better . Problem solved.

[Paul J]

I do wish people would stop using “better” where there isn’t a measurement and a scale of generally accepted good to bad.

 

 

From what I've seen it is definitely better than the old 75mm Summilux in colour, tonality, wide open sharpness. No doubt about it and it should be - it's new and five times the price. My guess is it will be a bit better at f2 than the 70mm APO-Summicron - but it also depends on a few things not known yet. It looks fairly safe to say it is out performing the 50 Noctilux too. It looks like it shares DNA from the 50mm APO-Summicron. So in objective terms it is better in every way. But of course you could argue it's just different.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Paul J

[Peter H]

From what I've seen it is definitely better than the old 75mm Summilux in colour, tonality, wide open sharpness. No doubt about it and it should be - it's new and five times the price. My guess is it will be a bit better at f2 than the 70mm APO-Summicron - but it also depends on a few things not known yet. It looks fairly safe to say it is out performing the 50 Noctilux too. It looks like it shares DNA from the 50mm APO-Summicron. So in objective terms it is better in every way. But of course you could argue it's just different.

Objectively, the new Noctilux 75 is bigger, heavier and more expensive than the Summicron or the Summilux. So it’s not objectively better in every way.

 

As we tend to agree, all lenses are compromises. If you’re one of those who love Leica lenses for how they achieve such a wonderful balance between performance and very small size, all relative to price, the different compromises and sacrifices in the Noctilux will be less appealing to you.

 

In the end these comparative evaluations always involve a considerable degree of subjectivity.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Peter H

[Paul J]

Objectively, the new Noctilux 75 is bigger, heavier and more expensive than the Summicron or the Summilux. So it’s not objectively better in every way.

 

As we tend to agree, all lenses are compromises. If you’re one of those who love Leica lenses for how they achieve such a wonderful balance between performance and very small size, all relative to price, the different compromises and sacrifices in the Noctilux will be less appealing to you.

 

In the end these comparative evaluations always involve a considerable degree of subjectivity.

 

 

True, everything is subjective, it's all IMO, but I would hope we can arrive at that conclusion without having to clarify that in every post. Personally i don't care about the size and weight and this new lens is better in every way. I care about that price though! 10k on a lens when some people can't afford to eat is a bit of an issue for me.

[Peter H]

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True, everything is subjective, it's all IMO, but I would hope we can arrive at that conclusion without having to clarify that in every post. Personally i don't care about the size and weight and this new lens is better in every way. I care about that price though! 10k on a lens when some people can't afford to eat is a bit of an issue for me.

 

 

...just that you said it was objectively better in every way.....

 

It's not, and I think there's an important point here. It's not that everything is subjective, (yes I agree, we shouldn't have to say it every time) but that we're at risk of losing sight of what matters to very many Leica users and finding ourselves in a position we don't want to be in if we insist that something is objectively  better when it isn't.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Peter H

[Paul J]

It is better in every objective way that means anything to me.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Paul J

[yst]

Agreeing with some others, this new 75mm/F1.25 is a great achievement from Leica, but what is the purpose?

 

At this high price and weight for a half stop faster than F1.4? Wouldn't that be better to have a newly designed 75mm/F1.4 ASPH about the same weight/size as the previous F1.4 lens, and at half or less the cost than this F1.25? And a lot more people can use it then...

 

Also the "sample" images on the Leica page for this new 75/F1.25 M lens is not a set of "good examples" for Leica (by "Sean Hopkins takes to the streets with his Leica M10 and the new Noctilux-M 75 f/1.25 ASPH")!

The images are photographically uninteresting, no inspiration, compositionally could not be said as any good, background choices terrible, topic wise not at all meaningful, images unsharp (not really showing the merits of this F1.25 lens' quality at wide open)...

 

What does this photographer trying to say? Just merely saying those images were taken by a 75mm/F1.25 "super fast" lens? A set of meaningless images shot with a super expensive, supper heavy lens? What's in this set of "images" that a Noctilux 50mm M lens, or a F1.4 ASPH M lens, or the previous 75mm/F1.4 could not do...? This set of "sample images" does not reflect Leica photography's supposed artistic, or meaningful image qualities at all, not a good choice or selection...

 

Leica should have chosen another better photographer's work trying to show the "merits" of it's new 75mm/F1.25 lens...

[thighslapper]

I think Leica would say that the 75 Summilux isn't good enough (isn't that why they stopped making it). I love it, but a comparison shows that it's talents are artistic rather than technical!

 

....... isn't there a bit of a theme developing here with Leica ...... both resurrecting old lenses and adding new ones with no additional technical benefits over older models ? 

 

Looks to me like they promoting character and artistic rendering having realised there is not much mileage in upgrading what are already superb optics .....

[pgk]

This set of "sample images" does not reflect Leica photography's supposed artistic, or meaningful image qualities at all, not a good choice or selection... Leica should have chosen another better photographer's work trying to show the "merits" of it's new 75mm/F1.25 lens...

 

Leica still seems to utilise 'street' photography in its advertising so I suppose that this is part and parcel of the theme. I'm not sure either that many 'street' photographers would really want to use a lens of this value and size to shoot such photography so I see this ethos behind this as being somewhat strange. That said, what purpose does an extremely fast, manual focus, short telephoto lens serve today? Well speaking for my own use of the 75mm Summilux, I'd say its an interesting all rounder which I do on occasion use wide open (not for street - my images are rather eclectic though) although I use it more stopped down. Not the way to advertise the Noctilux though. It could make an off-beat portrait lens cleverly and carefully handled - that could be interesting. And it could be used for scenes where DOF is irrelevant (planar subject) in low light but again much thought would be required to use it well. Its an intriguing lens but IMO very, very much a specialist's lens - not sure who the specialist actually are who'd want one though.

[lik]

A system which provides options like a Nocti 75 will always inspire me and obviously the M mount will somehow survive every so called innovation. I do exactly know why I became first and foremost M-photographer.

 

Now down to earth: The new Nocti 75 obviously outperforms everything comparable.

But very few see this outperformance in prints.  

So I’m driven by some considerations - maybe in order to remain more or less reasonable.

 

My (perhaps not only my) little strategy dilemma is:

1. On travel (street, urban, landscape, event) with only M plus lens: almost always Leica M with Nocti 50 is enough for angle, portrait, bokeh - everything. All this would not be feasible to the same extent with Nocti 75 alone.
2. Pure portrait-shooting: 50 Nocti can do almost everything Nocti 75 can. Both in my Pocket? Too much - then rather a Nocti 50 plus a Thambar 90 or Cron 90 - according to individual taste.
3. On travel with complete but still reasonably light equipment: 2 bodies, Lux 28, maybe also 21 - and then Nocti 50 (or APO 50) plus Nocti 75? Plus Telyt 135? Then rather 90 instead of 75 mm.
4. On the road with only two versatile lenses: Lux 28 (or 35 or an upcoming Nocti 35?) plus Nocti 75 would be - yes - that would be a very fine combo - and expensive. 

Conclusion: 

 

a.  Two Noctilux to me in many practical cases as I’m meanwhile mostly travel- landscape- street- and (a little bit) event-photographer simply create a redundancy with heavy weight and high price. 

b.  I would buy a Nocti 75 only in addition to Nocti 50 - selling the latter one is currently not an option. 

 

Does all that make sense? 

 

But I'm still tempted though - OMG, to remain reasonable is quite hard… 

Edited December 1, 2017 by lik

[Chaemono]

It could make an off-beat portrait lens cleverly and carefully handled - that could be interesting. And it could be used for scenes where DOF is irrelevant (planar subject) in low light but again much thought would be required to use it well. Its an intriguing lens but IMO very, very much a specialist's lens - not sure who the specialist actually are who'd want one though.

The only picture seen so far that somewhat shows the character of this lens is the one Jono posted in this thread IMO. It’s for specialists like him, I guess.

[adan]

... Also the "sample" images on the Leica page for this new 75/F1.25 M lens is not a set of "good examples" for Leica (by "Sean Hopkins takes to the streets with his Leica M10 and the new Noctilux-M 75 f/1.25 ASPH")! The images are photographically uninteresting, no inspiration, compositionally could not be said as any good, background choices terrible, topic wise not at all meaningful, images unsharp (not really showing the merits of this F1.25 lens' quality at wide open)...

 

That has been par for the course for Leica for decades. They "tune" their sample photos so that the average, well-heeled-but-talent-free hobbyist will not be disappointed when they acquire an expensive lens and find out they still produce dross with it. Imagine how disillusioning it would be to discover, after spending all that money, that their pictures were still worse than Leica's samples.

 

[Peter H]

That has been par for the course for Leica for decades. They "tune" their sample photos so that the average, well-heeled-but-talent-free hobbyist will not be disappointed when they acquire an expensive lens and find out they still produce dross with it. Imagine how disillusioning it would be to discover, after spending all that money, that their pictures were still worse than Leica's samples.

 

 

 

Now now...

[jonoslack]

Jono, I really would know if you think if the Noctilux at 2,0 is better, as in boké and sharpness,  than the summicron 75 at 2,0?

 

Ah Paulus .  I have some vague recollection of doing a careful comparison of 4 different 75mm Leica lenses . . but I seem to have lost it!

My vague recollection is that the 'cron and noctilux  were pretty comparable at f2 probably the noctilux a little sharper but with comparable bokeh . . . but the files seem to be gone!

[MarkP]

I really like the 75mm FL. I had the 2.0/75 APO-Summicron and a few years ago subsequently bought a 1.4/75 Summilux. My intention was to decide which one I liked most and sell the other one. Of course I still have both!

 

The pros and cons of the Summilux are well known - to me it is a better corrected 1.0/50 Noctilux. It is my 'art' 75. However, I only rarely use it at 1.4 as I like just a bit more DOF in my photographs.

 

The APO-Summicron is a spectacularly good lens (although mine was mis-calibrated out of the box and went back to Solms for adjustment). For me it is the best compromise between image quality, speed and weight in this focal length. Jono's comment that the Noctilux and Summilux perform similarly at f2.0 means that I won't get Noctilux GAS for better image quality at f2.0.

 

The 1.25/75 Noctilux does not interest me. I just don't use shallow depth of field enough in my photography to justify the price. The difference in speed between 1.4 and 1.25 is trivial and could be offset by a 1/3 stop increase in ISO with no significant degradation of IQ.

 

I guess I could sell both the APO-Summicron and 1.4 Summilux and chip in a bit more for the noctilux but then I lose the different benefits of each of the other lenses.

 

However, I'm delighted that Leica has produced this lens. This investment into the production of new and esoteric M-system lenses bodes well for the future of the system even if this is a lens that may see more use on the SL.

Edited December 1, 2017 by MarkP

[Chaemono]

It is better in every objective way that means anything to me.

One way it is objectively better than the 50 Summilux-SL, for example, is that the out-of-focus areas behind and in front of the subject look the same. With the Summilux-SL the background is smooth and pleasing but the area in front of the focal plane appears nervous. The difference would have been obvious in Jono’s picture. The reason it looks so nice with only the eyelid of the little girl being in focus is because of this exact property of the 75 Noctilux. So in this respect, it is objectively better and this matters to some users. Edited December 2, 2017 by Chaemono

[jonoslack]

One way it is objectively better than the 50 Summilux-SL, for example, is that the out-of-focus areas behind and in front of the subject look the same. With the Summilux-SL the background is smooth and pleasing but the area in front of the focal plane appears nervous. The difference would have been obvious in Jono’s picture. The reason it looks so nice with only the eyelid of the little girl being in focus is because of this exact property of the 75 Noctilux. So in this respect, it is objectively better and this matters to some users.

 

Hi There

I'm surprised to hear you say that about the 50 'lux SL (not a lens I know very well). I thought that was pretty good in front of the point of focus as well.

Certainly, as you say, the 75 noctilux is great for this. 

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[Chaemono]

Hi There

I'm surprised to hear you say that about the 50 'lux SL (not a lens I know very well). I thought that was pretty good in front of the point of focus as well.

Certainly, as you say, the 75 noctilux is great for this. 

 

The "extraordinarily harmonious" bokeh of the 75 Noctilux-M "both in front and behind the focal point" is also evident in your B&W shot of the woman with the white scarf (I assume it was taken with the 75 Noctilux). Fantastic. You know the strength of this lens and can put it to right use, while everyone else is wondering whether it is as sharp as the 75 Summicron at f/2 (others) and how does contrast behave as one stops it down (me). We are missing the point, I think.

 

On the 50 Summilux-SL, nope, it does have this one weakness, nervous bokeh in front of the focal plane.  See the first two shots in the first link vs. the 55 Otus, both on the SL (the Otus bokeh does get affected by the fact that it is not used on its native mount): https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-GGCRrg/

 

But the 50 Summilux-SL is stunning in terms of contrast, perceived sharpness, smooth transition from the in-focus to the out-of-focus area, and depth rendering wide open. It's breathtaking in this respect. See the second link here mostly against the 55 Otus on the 5DS R: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-9J3jzS/

Edited December 2, 2017 by Chaemono