Will the CCD in MM1 eventually go bad?

[kuad82001]

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Hi there!

Will all CCD eventually corrode?

Leica West has a MM1 new in the box with warranty, but I am worried if all 

CCD sensors will corrode.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

 

Grateful,

 

Dennis

[rafikiphoto]

Likely but not certain. The sensor 'warranty' is for 5 years after purchase I believe. I guess if you are purchasing from a Leica dealer that will still stand. Worth checking if it already has the problem.

 

Brand new in the box I'd check the battery is still in good shape before buying too.

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[colint544]

I would check to see if the sensor has been replaced with the new, corrosion resistant version. The M Monochrom mk1 is a superb camera, but I wouldn't want to buy one with the old sensor. You'd just be waiting for the corrosion to appear. Leica aren't doing the free upgrade any more, and it's quite expensive.

[kuad82001]

Thank you.

It is the original sensor which has a warranty.

Funny thing, every Leica dealer including New Jersey is telling me that not all of the original sensors will corrode. Yet from this forum and others the consensus is not IF the sensors will fail but WHEN.

[rafikiphoto]

I would check to see if the sensor has been replaced with the new, corrosion resistant version. The M Monochrom mk1 is a superb camera, but I wouldn't want to buy one with the old sensor. You'd just be waiting for the corrosion to appear. Leica aren't doing the free upgrade any more, and it's quite expensive.

 

As I read it, it is a brand new camera from a Leica dealer so it would be the old sensor, would have the manufacturers warranty and the sensor replacement guarantee would begin at the date of purchase.

Edited November 28, 2017 by rafikiphoto

[Guest JMF]

I would check to see if the sensor has been replaced with the new, corrosion resistant version. The M Monochrom mk1 is a superb camera, but I wouldn't want to buy one with the old sensor. You'd just be waiting for the corrosion to appear. Leica aren't doing the free upgrade any more, and it's quite expensive.

 

 

+1 

[wattsy]

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You'd just be waiting for the corrosion to appear. Leica aren't doing the free upgrade any more, and it's quite expensive.

 

 

It is still free for cameras bought new in the last 5 years. That doesn't mean that Leica won't tweak the policy in the future (as they seem wont to do when the situation changes for them) but I think it is safe to assume that the sensor will be guaranteed for a few more years. If the price for the NIB example is very good, I think it is worth the risk (and subsequent hassle having the sensor replaced).

Edited November 28, 2017 by wattsy

[Luke_Miller]

Will all CCD eventually corrode?

 

The internet "wisdom" is that all will eventually corrode.  A poll on another forum  indicated a majority of users had not experienced it.  Leica states that only a subset of the M9/MM/M-E bodies are affected.  Pick your favorite story.

[kuad82001]

Thanks again for all the advice, truly grateful.

They have a silver MM1 that is being upgraded with new sensor from Leica. The only catch is that it might not return until Feb/Mar.

I shudder at the idea that the new ones will corrode or show evidence during an important shoot/during travel.

Edited November 28, 2017 by kuad82001

[Jeff S]

I opted for a mint MM1, with under 5k actuations, that just returned from a sensor replacement and service from Leica.

 

Leica's recent policies with regard to these sensors as well as to S lens AF motors don't instill trust and confidence in their long term support. They perhaps adopted the wise financial approach, but the customer focused approach would not have time limitation, and even better would have involved recalls.

 

I always carry personal insurance (at replacement value) to cover every circumstance the warranty does not, so my decision was based as much on principle and practicality as on any financial concern.

 

Jeff

Edited November 28, 2017 by Jeff S

[kuad82001]

Why is Leica handling this situation so poorly?

[Luke_Miller]

Why is Leica handling this situation so poorly?

 I certainly have no information as to why Leica is handling the situation the way it has, but have a few thoughts on it.

 

My view of the August 15 deadline for free replacement was that Leica needed to flush out the remaining bodies that required the new sensor.  And the wait on sensors at the repair stations is due to awaiting delivery of an order based in part on the number of bodies awaiting sensor replacement.   That order may be the last one in which the providers of the sensor components will subsidize part of the cost to Leica.  I suspect the root of the corrosion issue is due to a component manufacturing or assembly issue that made some, but not all, of the sensors in question subject to delamination.  If correct there would have been an agreement between Leica and Truesense for cost sharing of the replacement sensors.  Presumably this agreement would have a Non-Disclosure clause, which is why virtually no information has been forthcoming. Truesense was purchased in 2014 by ON Semiconducter who may want to eliminate their costs associated with the Truesense arrangement, or are planning to discontinue production of the Leica CCD sensor.  A reading of their Annual Report does not reveal any discussion of camera makers as a market.  Since it does not appear that Leica is an ongoing ON Semiconductor customer they have little in the way of leverage.  The establishment of an end-date on ordering subsidized ( or possibly any) replacement sensors forced Leica to change position regarding "forever" free replacement.  My guess is the customer cost of replacement going forward is related to the loss of the subsidy.  Now, assuming that not all sensors will delaminate, Leica has an estimate of how many additional replacement sensors are needed to accommodate cameras currently awaiting replacement, as well as  identify a repair part stock level sufficient to cover future needs.

 

All of this is pure conjecture on my part and may have little resemblance to the actual situation.  But it is one scenario in which Leica can be viewed as acting responsibly (but unpopularly) towards the affected customers.  Of course there are other possible scenarios in which the opposite could be said to be true.

[johnwolf]

It will be under warranty, but I would be more concerned about sensor availability two or three or five years from now. Personally, I would not buy it. 

 

John

[Guest jvansmit]

 I certainly have no information as to why Leica is handling the situation the way it has, but have a few thoughts on it.

 

My view of the August 15 deadline for free replacement was that Leica needed to flush out the remaining bodies that required the new sensor.  And the wait on sensors at the repair stations is due to awaiting delivery of an order based in part on the number of bodies awaiting sensor replacement.   That order may be the last one in which the providers of the sensor components will subsidize part of the cost to Leica.  I suspect the root of the corrosion issue is due to a component manufacturing or assembly issue that made some, but not all, of the sensors in question subject to delamination.  If correct there would have been an agreement between Leica and Truesense for cost sharing of the replacement sensors.  Presumably this agreement would have a Non-Disclosure clause, which is why virtually no information has been forthcoming. Truesense was purchased in 2014 by ON Semiconducter who may want to eliminate their costs associated with the Truesense arrangement, or are planning to discontinue production of the Leica CCD sensor.  A reading of their Annual Report does not reveal any discussion of camera makers as a market.  Since it does not appear that Leica is an ongoing ON Semiconductor customer they have little in the way of leverage.  The establishment of an end-date on ordering subsidized ( or possibly any) replacement sensors forced Leica to change position regarding "forever" free replacement.  My guess is the customer cost of replacement going forward is related to the loss of the subsidy.  Now, assuming that not all sensors will delaminate, Leica has an estimate of how many additional replacement sensors are needed to accommodate cameras currently awaiting replacement, as well as  identify a repair part stock level sufficient to cover future needs.

 

All of this is pure conjecture on my part and may have little resemblance to the actual situation.  But it is one scenario in which Leica can be viewed as acting responsibly (but unpopularly) towards the affected customers.  Of course there are other possible scenarios in which the opposite could be said to be true.

 

Good points. I'm not an accountant, and it's been a long time since I was a company director, but I think that both Leica & the sensor company would need to include a 'contingent liability' in their financial statements. This would comprise an estimate of the sensor replacement expense in the income statement and also a liability on the balance sheet. I imagine that Leica would want to reduce or remove this going forward especially if an ownership change is contemplated in the future.

 

My own MM1 still has the original sensor with no sign of corrosion so that's a 'contingent liability' on my personal balance sheet and would affect the sale value if I were to sell it (which I won't). I'd expect an original sensor MM1 to sell for significantly less than an MM1 with a replaced sensor.

[enboe]

Will you be O.K. with no camera for six months or longer while the sensor is eventually replaced?  I passed the six month wait point last week with no end in sight on my two Monochrom 1's.

 

Best to get one with the new sensor and associated documentation.

 

Eric

[dj61]

Will you be O.K. with no camera for six months or longer while the sensor is eventually replaced?  I passed the six month wait point last week with no end in sight on my two Monochrom 1's.

 

Best to get one with the new sensor and associated documentation.

 

Eric

 

I just received an email that my Monochrome is back! 6 month wait...

[jip]

Eventually it will corrode! 

[Arai]

How do you check if the camera has the sensor replaced or not? (for MM body)

[jaapv]

Ask Leica.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[colorflow]

Just acquired a MM1 with less than 300 activations with replaced sensor. However the service invoice from Leica does not say sensor replaced. Yet Leica NJ service says it was replaced when I emailed them. So don’t know what to believe.

I’d be interested in what your service invoice say.

 

LeicaNJ also said free sensor replacement for any MM1 within five years from new. Don’t have to be original owner. Sensors now in stock. Replacement turnaround approx one week!!??

 

Alan