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MM V1 - MM246 or a second M10 in Monochrome mode?


M10Alpine

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I desperately regret selling my M246 and I'm in the market for a MM V1 or a M246 but is that really the camera I should get? Would a M10 in monochrome mode do the job as good as a MM V1 or the 246? 

The price for a mint 246 is around 5000€ (quite close to retail...) the MM V1 is around 3000€ and the M10 is only 6300€. I do love the non Bayer fileter cameras but is it rational to buy that now today? Or is a M10 a better investment while we are waiting for the M10 Monochrome? 

 

My thinking is that a M10 will sell for a lot more second hand when the M10 MM dropps in the market and what a camera that will be. 

 

Thoughts? 

I have looked a comparison reviews and I cant make up my mind. 

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I'm pretty sure that if it exists "on line", the comparison review Monochrom/M10 would not help you much.

If you have sold M246, may I think that you want something different, maybe I'm wrong.

 

With the futur M10 Monochrom, if Leica keep the 24M sensor, the benefit on M246 may not be there or so little.

For many years user of Monochrom CCD, I'm convinced that it's so different in rendering of b&w that I have never compared the MM output to M10.

 

Now that I use them along, those are really "best for me", one in B&W, the other for color.

 

In use, the Monochrom accuse it's age (writing on SD is looong), but the files from it are "whaouhh" each time.

M10 is quick and easy in use.

For me, they are complementary bodies that use same lenses.

 

Just try one Monochrom CCD, if you can, then decide if you wait for M10 Mono or buy M10 now ;) .

Edited by a.noctilux
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I'm pretty sure that if it exists "on line", the comparison review Monochrom/M10 would not help you much.

If you have sold M246, may I think that you want something different, maybe I'm wrong.

 

With the futur M10 Monochrom, if Leica keep the 24M sensor, the benefit on M246 may not be there or so little.

For many years user of Monochrom CCD, I'm convinced that it's so different in rendering of b&w that I have never compared the MM output to M10.

 

Now that I use them along, those are really "best for me", one in B&W, the other for color.

 

In use, the Monochrom accuse it's age (writing on SD is looong), but the files from it are "whaouhh" each time.

M10 is quick and easy in use.

For me, they are complementary bodies that use same lenses.

 

Just try one Monochrom CCD, if you can, then decide if you wait for M10 Mono or buy M10 now ;) .

 

 

 

I have a M10...

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I desperately regret selling my M246 and I'm in the market for a MM V1 or a M246 but is that really the camera I should get? Would a M10 in monochrome mode do the job as good as a MM V1 or the 246? 

 Recently I bought a new lens and tested it on my MM1, M246, and M240.  I took the same shot with all three.  Both the MM1 and M-246 out resolved the M-240. I suspect the same would be true of the M10, since it has the same resolution as the M-240.  So if you enjoy the fine details and textures in B&W images, I believe you are giving some of it up with B&W conversions from the M10.  If you are more into tweaking the image with color channel adjustments I believe the M10 would be fine. The ISO improvement in a future  M10M would be very attractive.

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Recently I bought a new lens and tested it on my MM1, M246, and M240. I took the same shot with all three. Both the MM1 and M-246 out resolved the M-240. I suspect the same would be true of the M10, since it has the same resolution as the M-240. So if you enjoy the fine details and textures in B&W images, I believe you are giving some of it up with B&W conversions from the M10. If you are more into tweaking the image with color channel adjustments I believe the M10 would be fine. The ISO improvement in a future M10M would be very attractive.

I’d fully agree with this. When people say they can’t see a resolution difference between the M246 and M240 / M10, all I can think is they must be printing so small (or maybe just pixel peeping at 100% at native resolution) that perhaps the differences aren’t obvious. Which is fine.

 

But if you print large (like I do), the resolution benefits - not to mention higher acuity, far richer tonal gradients, and especially lack of digital aberrations - make the M246 so far ahead of the Colour cameras that it’s obvious to me what is superior for B&W. The benefits I perceive about the M246 (same broadly applies to the MM 1) means I think the image can be resampled much much larger than you can off the M240 / M10.

 

I have 60”x40” prints off the M246, for example, which I think look better in resolution and tonal depth than 40”x27” off the M240, if that gives you a rough idea .....

 

To put it another way....I don’t think the M240/M10 has image quality that even gets close to what I’ve printed off small medium format cameras like the Leica S or Hassy X1D ....but I found the Leica M246 looked a lot more close to those small MF cameras in terms of both resolution and tonal gradation at larger print sizes ......

Edited by Jon Warwick
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I have a M10...

 

Sorry, I misunderstood.

 

If I were you, I'd buy a Monochrom waiting for M10 Mono.

In my view, when photographing with a Monochrom, I don't have same mindset as with M10.

 

I'm thinking trying soon M246 to see if in use it could replace my old Monochrom CCD.

Edited by a.noctilux
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 Recently I bought a new lens and tested it on my MM1, M246, and M240.  I took the same shot with all three.  Both the MM1 and M-246 out resolved the M-240. I suspect the same would be true of the M10, since it has the same resolution as the M-240.  So if you enjoy the fine details and textures in B&W images, I believe you are giving some of it up with B&W conversions from the M10.  If you are more into tweaking the image with color channel adjustments I believe the M10 would be fine. The ISO improvement in a future  M10M would be very attractive.

 

 

I agree with that assessment. Interesting point.

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It's not just about print quality for me, it's also about working with a total b/w workflow. I was satisfied with conversions from my M240, and even more with my M10. And I also resisted a Monochrom in part because I appreciated the PP flexibility derived from the use of color channels. But the lure of a return to a b/w workflow, experienced in my film M - Tri-X days, prompted me to recently pick up a mint MM 1. It was just back from Leica with new sensor and service, under 5k actuations, and less than half the cost of an M246.

 

I suspect that an M10 Monochrom is a year away, and then more time to read reviews and assess. The MM is ready now...and so am I.

 

Jeff

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I have an M10 and the M246 Mono and, like some of the preceding writers, I like to make large prints. I did some extensive tests at a wide range of ISO settings and was surprised to see that the M10, when converted to B&W, held up well to the Monocrom based on the M240. The Mono is marginally sharper overall. The biggest difference is in the darkest areas of the image when shooting at 6400 ISO. The darkest areas looked like film grain in the Mono and are mushy in the M10. That said, the cameras were close enough that I'm not afraid to leave the Mono behind when I want to travel light. I've gotten some beautiful B&W shots from the M10, AND it is a delight to shoot with, it's the best user interface of any digital M Leica ever made. 

 

One of the aspects that makes the MMII so outstanding is its ability to greatly outperform the M240 seeing detail in the shadows. I find that the M10 rivals the 246 in that respect, except for the item mentioned above, but that only referred to the darkest areas at high ISO.

 

If I were in your shoes, I'd probably go with the M10 since it exists now and makes great B&W pictures. I plan to buy an M10 Monochrom as soon as it's available, I expect it will be another jump ahead of the M240 it's based on. 

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I desperately regret selling my M246 and I'm in the market for a MM V1 or a M246 but is that really the camera I should get? Would a M10 in monochrome mode do the job as good as a MM V1 or the 246? 

The price for a mint 246 is around 5000€ (quite close to retail...) the MM V1 is around 3000€ and the M10 is only 6300€. I do love the non Bayer fileter cameras but is it rational to buy that now today? Or is a M10 a better investment while we are waiting for the M10 Monochrome? 

 

My thinking is that a M10 will sell for a lot more second hand when the M10 MM dropps in the market and what a camera that will be. 

 

Thoughts? 

I have looked a comparison reviews and I cant make up my mind.

 

For me, decided to hang onto my M246 after getting the Hasselblad X1D. Had hoped it would replace it. But I found the 246 was as good in detail and provided something extra I couldn’t reproduce in PP in tonality and character. So now shooting both. One for color, fantastic color btw, and one for monochrome. I patiently wait for the M10 monochrome, or other monochrome....like CL Monochrome or Q Monochrome or TL monochrome(Listening, Leica?). The m246 I love the files but would like a smaller and lighter monochrome camera. Considered film again, but too time consuming.

 

I don’t know if buying the M10 hoping it maintains a higher second hand price when the m10 Monochrome arrives. I would just wait it out because you will lose significantly. Rather, invest in a Q if just planning to keep it short term. The BW images out of the Q are very good. Take a look on the Q forum.

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I desperately regret selling my M246 and I'm in the market for a MM V1 or a M246 but is that really the camera I should get? Would a M10 in monochrome mode do the job as good as a MM V1 or the 246? 

 

The price for a mint 246 is around 5000€ (quite close to retail...) the MM V1 is around 3000€ and the M10 is only 6300€. I do love the non Bayer fileter cameras but is it rational to buy that now today? Or is a M10 a better investment while we are waiting for the M10 Monochrome? 

 

My thinking is that a M10 will sell for a lot more second hand when the M10 MM dropps in the market and what a camera that will be. 

 

Thoughts? 

 

I have looked a comparison reviews and I cant make up my mind. 

 

If I were in your shoes, I would buy a new MM246 to replace your dearly departed MM246.  And then I would never sell or trade it or any other Leica M camera or lens; 90% of the time doing so only leads to regret and misery.

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Rent, demo or borrow an M10 and answer at least one key question yourself. Only your pics and your editing and print workflow matter. There are many variables beyond the camera choice that influence final print results. And tastes and preferences about those print results also vary.

 

Jeff

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But the lure of a return to a b/w workflow, experienced in my film M - Tri-X days, prompted me to recently pick up a mint MM 1. It was just back from Leica with new sensor and service, under 5k actuations, and less than half the cost of an M246.

 

The MM is ready now...and so am I.

 

Jeff

 

And....  

 

Jeff, your cliffhanger is torture.  What is your conclusion?  Has Henri fulfilled your expectations?

Edited by Likaleica
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And....

 

Jeff, your cliffhanger is torture. What is your conclusion? Has Henri fulfilled your expectations?

Limited opportunity lately to enjoy picture taking due to family and other matters. :( No rush to judgment, though, as I need to use gear over an extended period to reach fair assessment. I'd be surprised at any letdown; it's a terrific little machine.

 

I am also looking forward to receiving a 28-35-50 second version MATE that a dealer has sent to Germany for a total overhaul. I used one many years ago, but traded it. I think it will make a nice companion with the MM1 with its higher ISO capabilities, and will allow me to travel easily once I get the time. No estimation on repair time, however.

 

Jeff

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For me, decided to hang onto my M246 after getting the Hasselblad X1D. Had hoped it would replace it. But I found the 246 was as good in detail and provided something extra I couldn’t reproduce in PP in tonality and character. So now shooting both. One for color, fantastic color btw, and one for monochrome. I patiently wait for the M10 monochrome, or other monochrome....like CL Monochrome or Q Monochrome or TL monochrome(Listening, Leica?). The m246 I love the files but would like a smaller and lighter monochrome camera. Considered film again, but too time consuming.

 

I don’t know if buying the M10 hoping it maintains a higher second hand price when the m10 Monochrome arrives. I would just wait it out because you will lose significantly. Rather, invest in a Q if just planning to keep it short term. The BW images out of the Q are very good. Take a look on the Q forum.

 

 

I currently own a M10 and a Q

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I currently own a M10 and a Q

Ok. I think most of us didn’t get that out of your original post since you were asking how the m10 did in monochrome mode. Are you trying to decide whether or not to keep the m10 and wait for the monochrome version of the m10, or trade in now for 246 or original MM? Right? If we’re me, I would keep the m10 and wait until new monochrome is released and then decide. We can hope is just few months away. It will likely be a bit better than the 246. You run the risk of losing the value of the m10 then later losing again upgrading to newer monochrome. Good luck.

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Any of the modern digital cameras will produce stunningly good imagery, in both black-and-white and color.  The M9, M240, and M10 all do a great job.  Medium format digital is even better.

 

But there is something uniquely special about the Monochrom experience.  Something that cannot be replicated in any color digital camera.

 

I love my M10.  I love my Hasselblad digital back.  But when I head out the door, more often than not it's with one of the Monochrom's.  They stimulate me in ways that nothing else ever has.

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Today I picked up a brand new M Monochrome (Silver) from a Leica dealer, with a 5 year warranty and zero pictures taken, original sensor but Leica will replace for free when needed. Breaking the box on this will have to wait until my birthday. 

 

- I followed some much appreciated advice in this thread. I will off course keep my M10 and Q, I would never be with out the M10. I was actually thinking of buying a second M10 to have as Monochrome, but I wanted a real Monochrome. Its so special and as some pointed out, its about the mindset as well.   

 

I opted for the M Monochrome fro two resons. 1 the CCD sensor. I have never had a Leica with a CCD sensor and secondly because I have a silver M10 I liked the idea of a silver Monochrome. 

 

So now I just have to overcome any hesitation to start shooting with this "new" old camera. Amazing feeling.

 

Thanks 

Edited by M10Alpine
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