Let battle commence........

[Nevik]

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Hi all,

I'm going to be 60 in January and all those years I've never owned a Leica, well that needs to be put right. I have or have had all kinds of camera exotica in the past, but never a Leica.

The internet is full of 5 minute experts regarding photography so as a reference its pretty poor, hence I'm turning to you guys, I don't want you to pick me a camera, thats my job. 

What I would like is some user information from users wise 'ol heads regarding differences and preferences between M3, M2 and M4.

I have had rangefinders before (Makina 67 springs to mind) and currently also shoot with a Rollei 35 SE, amongst medium and large format cameras.

 

Cheers,

 

Kevin.

[pgk]

What I would like is some user information from users wise 'ol heads regarding differences and preferences between M3, M2 and M4.

 

Tricky because each model has its adherents. Personally I like M4s. The most versatile of the three IMO. But whichever you go for they are all classics. If you intend to use a 35mm lens the M2 and M4 are more useful. for 50mm and above its the M3. Between the M2 and M4 the M4 being later is to my mind rather more refined. Your biggest problem is that you will find that all three cameras have their pluses and their users will tell you just what they are.

 

Finally, remember that all these models are 'old' and should either have been serviced or should have the cost of a service considered when buying.

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[a.noctilux]

Kevin,

 

Better later than never .

 

I'd begin with the question which focal length (28, 35, 50, etc.) before choosing a M body.

 

- M2 or M4 for wider but if the choice is 28mm, they need a separate finder if you plan to frame right

in this 28mm case M3 can be used as the other

- if it's 50mm is your favorite, M3 has the "best viewfinder for 50mm", second only by later x0.85 finder M6/M7/MP

- if 35mm, then M2 or M4

M3 need special "goggled 35mm" (...cheaper than same lens without goggles in Summicron/Summilux/Summaron, that's good thing)

 

I have the 3 types you mention, but not able to choose one , they are old and when maintained correctly "usable" everyday.

M3 is from 1954...first batch and usable now.

 

Even now I would use newer M-A (but that's another story) or M6 0.85 .

Edited November 24, 2017 by a.noctilux

[spydrxx]

I certainly have my favorites, but my best advice is to get yourself to a dealer who has a goodly selection and personally get a sense of what works best for you and your intended use.

[Frase]

All you need to work out is-

1. do you want a meter?

2. 28mm?

3. viewfinder magnification?

4. straight or slanted rewind?

5. Do you like aperture priority?

[logan2z]

You didn't mention your budget, but if you can swing a new M-A/M-P (after deciding if you want a built in meter) then I'd go that route. More expensive than an older M2/3/4/6 plus CLA, but you'll get a brand new camera with all of the improvements that Leica has introduced over the years.

Edited November 24, 2017 by logan2z

[TomB_tx]

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I started with an M4 in 1968, added an M6 in '85, and since retiring collected M2, M3, and M5 (and M9 digital).

Good advice from the other replies: consider the lenses you are likely to use. That's why I got the M4 in 68 instead of the M3 which was still available new at the same price. The Ms are at their best with 35, 50, & 90 lenses. I use 35 & 50 most, and the M3 is weak with a 35. (I have the goggled version of the Summicron 35, but the optics affect the viewfinder clarity.) Of the non-metered models I prefer the M4, as it is great with a 35 or 50, and 90 is still very usable (my first lens for it). It also has a 135 frame, which the M2 lacks.

The sleeper is the M5, which was the best rangefinder model Leitz made; but it feels (and is) larger than the classic M shape.

These days I prefer the M6, which is basically an M4 with a built-in meter, which is convenient. The original finder does have more tendency to flare, which I didn't notice much for 25 years, but bothers my old eyes more. So I had DAG update the finder optics and add new multi-coated windows, and now I like it better than any of the older ones.

So I would suggest the M6. Of course, the MP is newer, and is basically an updated M6 with M3-style controls.

Edited November 24, 2017 by TomB_tx

[Herr Barnack]

I would recommend the M4-P.  It has 28mm - 135mm frame lines, is light as a feather, sturdy as a rock and does not have the removable film take up reel as does the M3, which makes loading film quicker and easier.  The M4-P bodies are also priced within reason. 

 

The M4-P has the diagonal rewind crank; some think it to be fragile but I have not found this to be the case (perhaps if you are a war zone photographer the knurled rewind knob is a good idea). 

 

The knurled rewind knob is a bit more streamlined and may be more sturdy, but it is also slower.  A slower rewind and reload equals more missed images if you are a documentary, travel or street photographer.  You will need a handheld light meter but that is not a serious inconvenience in my experience. 

[Nevik]

I've never considered the M5, now that we are not talking cutting edge technology with any of the film M's and the appeal is something other than a latest gizmo equiped camera, how does the 5 stack up against the rest?

[TomB_tx]

I love shooting with my M5. It has a small central spot metering area so you can pick a neutral spot and meter, then shift an compose. You see the shutter speed in the finder, which does not have the flare issue of the M6. If you find a good one, the price tends to be lower than other models. On this model I think the black chrome looks better than silver.

A negative is that this model used many unique parts, and was discontinued in favor of SLR models (before Leica realized the continued demand for the classic M look). So meter cells and other internal parts are now scarce.

[Nevik]

I've not quite got a handle on the M4's, am I correct in thinking the M4 was a worthy successor to the 3/2 but the 4P and 4 -2 were slightly more budget orientated ?

[01af]

The Leica M3 is the first M model; it has framelines for 50 mm, 90 mm, and 135 mm. The viewfinder magnification is the largest of all M cameras, 0.91×. This makes the M3 the best fim M camera to use with 50 mm lenses (and longer), but for wide-angle lenses, googles or accessory finders are required.

 

The Leica M2 is the second M model; it has framelines for 35 mm, 50 mm, and 90 mm, as well as a simplified frame counter which won't reset automatically when removing the bottom plate. After loading a new roll, it needs to be set to zero manually.

 

For some years (late fifties to mid-sixties), the M3 and M2 were produced simultaneously. Then, both got discontinued and replaced by the Leica M4. It has four framelines, for 35 mm, 50 mm, 90 mm, and 135 mm. It also has an improved quick-load system which is also found in today's film M cameras and makes loading film much easier. Furthermore it has the M3's automatic frame counter and a new two-piece film advance lever and a tilted film rewind crank (as opposed the the M3's and M2's rewind knob).

 

All three M models don't incorporate a light meter. The first M model with an integrated light meter was the Leica M5 but the increased body size was unloved by the customers. So the M5 was followed by updated meter-less M4 variants, the M4-2 and then M4-P. Compared to the M4, the M4-2 lost the integrated self-timer but got the ability to use the motorized M winder, due to a stronger and more durable film transport mechanism. The M4-P got two additional framelines, for 28 mm and 75 mm, so it was the first M model with six framelines.

 

.

Edited November 24, 2017 by 01af

[Nevik]

So M4-2 and M4-P still decent cameras despite a little more budget?

[Nevik]

Did cramming more framlines in make it more useful or less?

[earleygallery]

Depends on your preference! 

 

Choose your camera based on which lens/es you want to use, your budget, and also what you find out there - you might come across a particularly nice example of an M for a great price that puts other considerations to the side! 

 

I use an M2, I like it's simple nature and frame lines for 35/50/90 is fine for me. 

[michaelwj]

M4. I use mine only with a 28 and frame with the whole viewfinder. Get a black chrome one, they're the coolest and the newest of the M4s and therefore the newest of the "classic" Leicas (M3/2/4).

 

But....

If I was buying myself one for my 60th birthday I'd by an M-A just because it's new and would be a special treat.

Edited November 24, 2017 by michaelwj

[pico]

What I would like is some user information from users wise 'ol heads regarding differences and preferences between M3, M2 and M4.

 

If you are not going to get a 75mm lens, then my recommendation is M4. If you are going to get a 75mm, or add a winder (motorwind, Leicavit or RapidWinder) then the M4-P. I do not recommend the winders unless you really need one.

 

Over the past fifty years I have used all the M models, and still have most of them. Why the M4? It is robust, easy loading, has a great rewind, smooth advance. 

 

A black enamel body is usually unjustifiably expensive. Black chrome is not so elegant by comparison. Chrome is a classic and super durable finish.

 

Chrome M4!

Edited November 24, 2017 by pico

[michaelwj]

A black enamel body is usually unjustifiably expensive. Black chrome is not so elegant by comparison. Chrome is a classic and super durable finish.

 

 

 

My 2c on the M4 finishes.

 

Chrome: Looks excellent with chrome lenses, not so good with black lenses. If you're going for some vintage lenses like the 2.8/35mm that aren't available in black then a chrome body is perfect.

 

Black Chrome: An understated finish that matches well with black lenses. Very durable and looks good for a long time. The black chrome M4's were the last off the production line and produced in small numbers (~6000). When it does wear it starts to look a bit less elegant. Priced about 2x a chrome model.

 

Black Paint: The classic Leica black finish. Wears quickly to brass which can look either good or bad - some of them just look ratty, some look super cool depending on the type of wear. Scratches look ratty. Priced about 2x a black chrome and 4x a chrome body. Unlike chrome and black chrome, black paint is relatively easy to fake so if you are going to get a black paint then provenance is key.

 

IMO, the value of the different M4 finishes;

Chrome is a bargain, mostly due to its relative abundance (~50,000). Chrome M4s will likely not lose any significant value going forward.

Black chrome is slightly undervalued relative to it's rarity, but no longer a bargain. But it could go either way going forward, either the market will decide that they're valuable due to their rarity or continue to ignore them due to their "ugly ducking" black chrome status. (My personal favourite - understated and classic).

Black paint is costly and value can be hit and miss. A good copy is likely to be undervalued, there aren't many of them (~5000 compared to about 2000 "official" BP M2s) and they're the most desirable. A good condition black paint M4 if kept in good condition will hold its value and long term should increase in value.

Edited November 24, 2017 by michaelwj

[TomB_tx]

Mixing silver chrome and black bodies and lenses is a matter of preference. I used only black lenses on my chrome M4 for decades, and thought they looked great. (But then I'm an engineer, so I have no taste.)

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pico]

Black Paint: The classic Leica black finish. Wears quickly to brass which can look either good or bad - some of them just look ratty, some look super cool depending on the type of wear. Scratches look ratty. Priced about 2x a black chrome and 4x a chrome body. Unlike chrome and black chrome, black paint is relatively easy to fake so if you are going to get a black paint then provenance is key.

 

Thanks for reiterating the information. Pristine black enamel M4, M2, M3 Leicas are for collectors. Collecting does not seem to be the OP's objective. Besides, it is highly unlikely we can find a real black enamel M at a price that does not make a regular consumer laugh out loud or a collector cry.

 

Repaints over chrome, stripped or not,  are generally almost affordable,  but who wants to risk the durability issue? Get a chrome body and go out into the world with confidence and a peaceful heart.

 

You might know I have a couple black enamels, a button rewind M2 and an M4. As the frequency of popping nitro pills increases, the likelihood of mine showing up for sale at reasonable price increases. If only I could hide sales from rich collectors.

Edited November 25, 2017 by pico