Next, a full frame upgrade, ML,

[jaapv]

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FF yes i have a Kolari modded A7s, a CL also. Only issue with the modded A7 is the lack of auto zoom with M lenses but an L mount Leica would have the same problem so no interest for me. 

That would be the case for an M mount EVF camera as well. The zoom sensor is situated inside the rangefinder mechanism. If you take the rangefinder away you take the rangefinder coupling away, and the camera would not be able to sense the movement of the focus ring.

Which would make an EVF - M mount camera of no interest to you either.

 

If Leica had been able or/and willing to fit a mechanical rangefinder coupling type motion sensor into the mount, they could have done so just as easily in the adapter.

[lct]

Well i'm no techie at all but there can be a simple mechanical coupling between the lens (focus cam) and the body (roller cam) i guess. The same as that of the rangefinder w/o the rangefinder itself sort of. Hard to put that in an adapter.

 

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Edited May 2, 2018 by lct

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[jaapv]

Not that hard at first sight I would say. It does not have to be so large or elaborate, or even precise. It only has to sense movement, not transfer it precisely to an RF mechanism. My guess is, if Leica does not want to put it into an adapter, they won't do so in a mount either.

In the M, the sensor itself is not coupled directly to the roller cam, but incorporated into the rangefinder mechanism.

It is a bit silly to discuss a technical detail of a camera that most likely will never be built...

[lct]

Never say never. More and more M lens users prefer mirrorless cameras.

[Einst_Stein]

The focusing sensor does not have to be mechanical. The auto focus sensor can do it nicely. The auto fucus sensor will detect the changing of focus when you mive the focus ring, whether it is phase type or contrast type. It can even be done through firmware.

[jaapv]

We are talking about a hypothetical EVF - M mount camera here. No Autofocus in that case, manual only...

[Martin B]

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FF yes i have a Kolari modded A7s, a CL also. Only issue with the modded A7 is the lack of auto zoom with M lenses but an L mount Leica would have the same problem so no interest for me. 

 

You can get AF with M lenses attached to a Sony A7 camera with the TechArt adapter.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Martin B

[jaapv]

But there still is no auto-zoom by that combo as far as I am aware.

[Einst_Stein]

We are talking about a hypothetical EVF - M mount camera here. No Autofocus in that case, manual only...

We are talking about the full frame upgraded CL. M style with EVF and L mount.

[lct]

We are talking about the full frame upgraded CL. M style with EVF and L mount.

 

Don't count me in please. L mount means no auto zoom with M lenses. Been there with the CL, thanks no thanks for a serious full frame camera. 

[Ozytripper]

Please indicate where you have got the information that a 'huge segment of new customers' want an EVF version of the M. 

As mentioned before a quick look at the multiple threads on this topic indicates that there is a demand. Do a count yourself. Read the Porsche analogy again. Porsche ignored the Purists and came up with a best seller.  What evidence do you have that there is no market for it? What logic is there when one says "there is no market for the EVF M " and then say "The EVF M will cannibalize OVF M sales" Just argument for the sake of argument.

 

You clearly have a very poor understanding of Leica's product history and underlying philosophy.

History can be an impediment (Porsche was performing poorly sticking to history ) By the way is a 1 kg lens half the size of a Bazooka part of the M philosophy? (I am referring to the 75mm Noct). Aren't M lens supposed to be small and light? So why bend the rules if their philosophy is so strong?

 

 

Like Jaap, I have nothing at all against an EVF version of the M, or an interchangeable M mount lens version of the Q, and I am sure Leica could find a way to do it if they wanted to.

If you and JAAPV have nothing against an EVF M camera then please refrain from saying - "go buy an SL". A lot of us hate the size of it. I am even happy if they came up with a smaller body SL.

 

However it is my considered opinion that Leica are highly unlikely to do it, particularly as L mount cameras already allow the use of almost all legacy Leica lenses. They have stated L is the way forward and that new developments will be revealed in June. 

I respect your CONSIDERED OPINION. This is a forum and we are all free to express our own CONSIDERED OPINION. Just don't patronize people by saying "go buy an SL or CL" because it is not what they want.

I still think Leica is too scared of offending the PURISTS so they refrain from making the EVF M. How difficult is it to tweak the Q to take M lenses?

 

By the way I do have an M10 and a CL. Just waiting for an EVF M to supplement my OVF M. Will get rid of my CL when the EVF M is released. Sooner or later it will come

[Einst_Stein]

You can get AF with M lenses attached to a Sony A7 camera with the TechArt adapter.

I have it. Not satisfied due to several reasons.

1. Image quality: This is essentially the same concept as Contax AT. Changing the distance between the lens and the sensor is not the same as changing the distanced between the lens element.

2. reliability: a typical (intuitive) way to hold the camera and the lens will put pressure to against the motor's movement. The adapter died quickly. leaving the camera on a tripod or some kind of support to take off the hand may help, if that's the way you want to take picture. But then. the motor's movement make the camera/lens unstable.

3. It has a lot of limitation to work with large or heavy lenses.  At the best is you have to put the lens on tripod and let the camera to move.  

4. forget about AF, A7x is simply not a platform for Leica M lenses. Most 35mm and wider are no no, Even 50mm is stretched. You have very limited choice.

[jaapv]

 

Please indicate where you have got the information that a 'huge segment of new customers' want an EVF version of the M. 

As mentioned before a quick look at the multiple threads on this topic indicates that there is a demand. Do a count yourself. Read the Porsche analogy again. Porsche ignored the Purists and came up with a best seller.  What evidence do you have that there is no market for it? What logic is there when one says "there is no market for the EVF M " and then say "The EVF M will cannibalize OVF M sales" Just argument for the sake of argument.

 

You clearly have a very poor understanding of Leica's product history and underlying philosophy.

History can be an impediment (Porsche was performing poorly sticking to history ) By the way is a 1 kg lens half the size of a Bazooka part of the M philosophy? (I am referring to the 75mm Noct). Aren't M lens supposed to be small and light? So why bend the rules if their philosophy is so strong?

 

 

Like Jaap, I have nothing at all against an EVF version of the M, or an interchangeable M mount lens version of the Q, and I am sure Leica could find a way to do it if they wanted to.

If you and JAAPV have nothing against an EVF M camera then please refrain from saying - "go buy an SL". A lot of us hate the size of it. I am even happy if they came up with a smaller body SL.

 

However it is my considered opinion that Leica are highly unlikely to do it, particularly as L mount cameras already allow the use of almost all legacy Leica lenses. They have stated L is the way forward and that new developments will be revealed in June. 

I respect your CONSIDERED OPINION. This is a forum and we are all free to express our own CONSIDERED OPINION. Just don't patronize people by saying "go buy an SL or CL" because it is not what they want.

I still think Leica is too scared of offending the PURISTS so they refrain from making the EVF M. How difficult is it to tweak the Q to take M lenses?

 

By the way I do have an M10 and a CL. Just waiting for an EVF M to supplement my OVF M. Will get rid of my CL when the EVF M is released. Sooner or later it will come

 

 

 

Please refer to any post where I said "go and buy an SL"   I don't think Thighslapper said so either.

But now that you mention it, I strongly suspect that Leica regards the M10+Visoflex, SL, T+Visoflex and CL as sufficient choice in EVFs for their M lenses. I'm sure that they would appreciate you buying an SL

 

Leica is certainly sensitive to customers' wishes. But they are at liberty to count noses. I doubt whether the dozen prospective buyers on this forum represent a realistic customer base. I'm sure that Leica's market research is slightly more sophisticated. We can speculate, but Leica has to build it - or not.

My opinion is that in all likelihood you are in for a long, long wait.

 

 

As to your question about the Leica philosophy on large lenses: this is probably the most sought-after accessory for Leica from a time that Leica attempted to make their cameras as universal as possible:

 

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[JTLeica]

Never say never. More and more M lens users prefer mirrorless cameras.

 

Are you sure about that? I have gone from mirrorless to Leica M, and likely wont ever go back.

[Martin B]

I have it. Not satisfied due to several reasons.

1. Image quality: This is essentially the same concept as Contax AT. Changing the distance between the lens and the sensor is not the same as changing the distanced between the lens element.

2. reliability: a typical (intuitive) way to hold the camera and the lens will put pressure to against the motor's movement. The adapter died quickly. leaving the camera on a tripod or some kind of support to take off the hand may help, if that's the way you want to take picture. But then. the motor's movement make the camera/lens unstable.

3. It has a lot of limitation to work with large or heavy lenses.  At the best is you have to put the lens on tripod and let the camera to move.  

4. forget about AF, A7x is simply not a platform for Leica M lenses. Most 35mm and wider are no no, Even 50mm is stretched. You have very limited choice.

 

Yeah, for some reason I hear often in this forum that M lenses don't work well on Sony A7 cameras which is nonsense - there are limitations for ultra-wides below 21 mm FL (even this is workable as shown below taken with CV 12/5.6 M-lens with Fotasy M/E adapter on A7R). Some M lenses with smaller pupil distance can cause issues, too - for example the f/2 Summicron-based ASPH lenses. But non ASPH based f/2 predecessor lenses or Summilux lenses work beautiful. I am not aware that any kind of 50 mm M lens caused trouble on any kind of A7/A9 based camera.

 

Regarding the TechArt adapter, I am not using it since I don't need AF with my M lenses. I just pointed it out as potential recommendation as reply to lct's comment. In other photo forums I hear mostly good things about it, but since I have no personal experience with it , I can't exclude that it might have issues in very specific situations (likely because most people don't use heavy or large M lenses anyway which is just an extreme). 

 

 

[djs]

Yeah, for some reason I hear often in this forum that M lenses don't work well on Sony A7 cameras which is nonsense - there are limitations for ultra-wides below 21 mm FL (even this is workable as shown below taken with CV 12/5.6 M-lens with Fotasy M/E adapter on A7R). Some M lenses with smaller pupil distance can cause issues, too - for example the f/2 Summicron-based ASPH lenses. But non ASPH based f/2 predecessor lenses or Summilux lenses work beautiful. I am not aware that any kind of 50 mm M lens caused trouble on any kind of A7/A9 based camera.

 

Well, I beg to differ - I was not satisfied with the results from my 50mm and wider, but I understand that others may be happy.

[Martin B]

Well, I beg to differ - I was not satisfied with the results from my 50mm and wider, but I understand that others may be happy.

 

Show me your results instead of straw man argumentation!

[jaapv]

Sharing an opinion is not a straw  man argument.

[djs]

Show me your results instead of straw man argumentation!

 

I was simply saying that I was not satisfied with the results, and no one else can make that judgement for me. I also accept that, for whatever set of conditions, other people may be perfectly content with the results.

 

It would be wrong for either of us to come out with a definitive statement one way or the other.

Edited May 4, 2018 by djs

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[Martin B]

Sharing an opinion is not a straw  man argument.

 

It is if any kind of supporting data are missing - like photos. I could say anything just to support an opinion to reiterate without any proof of concept, too. But maybe this is going off topic of this post too much - didn't want to interfere with the discussion flow but also didn't want to let the false above statement go.