Zone focussing with SL and Zeiss 35mm Distagon ZM

[su25]

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I am having a difficult time with zone focussing for street photography. I am using SL with Zeiss 35mm f1.4 ZM. 

Initially I tried with f1.4 and changing focus for each shot. While it did give good results, but not fast enough to capture the scene. 
Next, I tried f8  and f11 at 1/125s and 1/250s with zone focussing...with 1.2m set on the left side (closest distance in focus), which gave me an in-focus distance between 1.2~2.5 m @ f8 and 1.2~3.0 @ f11. Also, tried electronic shutter always on and always off (not much difference to the image, but silent shutter is useful).
Then I tried setting infinity scale on the right side @ f8 & f11, but the min focus distance is more than 2.5m. 

 

I have two issues:

(a) images are not sharp even at 1/250s; and

( how to switch quickly between shallow dof and wide dof quickly?

 

I would appreciate any inputs on what settings seems to work for you.  I am new to street photography, and have no experience with RF cameras and quite slow with MF lenses. 

Finally, will optical VF attachment help for street photography with SL?

[Clactonian]

Would you not be better to increase the ISO and use a faster shutter speed? Until perfected there is probably a tendency to snatch at the shutter to capture the 'decisive moment' so the faster your shutter speed the better, although even then it may not overcome all camera movement.

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[LD_50]

Zone focus at f1.4 and close distance sounds like a good way to miss focus most of the time.

 

I recommend practicing with stationary targets at set focus distances so you can start to better know your subject distances. This should help with zone focusing. Also I would use a smaller aperture for greater DOF to nail focus more reliably. Finally you may need to lower your expectations for what you deem acceptably sharp for this type of shooting.

 

I don’t see how an optical VF would help if you’re missing focus.

[su25]

Zone focus at f1.4 and close distance sounds like a good way to miss focus most of the time.

 

I recommend practicing with stationary targets at set focus distances so you can start to better know your subject distances. This should help with zone focusing. Also I would use a smaller aperture for greater DOF to nail focus more reliably. Finally you may need to lower your expectations for what you deem acceptably sharp for this type of shooting.

 

I don’t see how an optical VF would help if you’re missing focus.

Zone focus is @ f8 and f11. At f1.4 its manual focus.  Yes, I am bad at judging subject distance. 

I think you are spot on... "lower my expectations for this type of shooting"... however, when compared to pictures taken by other street photographers, their images are much sharper. 

Optical VF is not for focussing (assuming I set up the camera correctly for zone focus). Its mainly to anticipate subjects coming into the frame, which I find impossible with EVF (I have to close one eye to view through the EVF).

 

 

Would you not be better to increase the ISO and use a faster shutter speed? Until perfected there is probably a tendency to snatch at the shutter to capture the 'decisive moment' so the faster your shutter speed the better, although even then it may not overcome all camera movement.

I have set the camera on Auto ISO.

 

Seems like 1/250s is not fast enough for photographing people walking.

And, I may be better off with setting the infinity on the right side of the scale for subjects more than 2.5m away, and maybe 1.2m on the left side for closer subjects. I need to anticipate subject distance, and also get to know how much I need to rotate the focus ring to quickly switch between these two set ups.

 

Thanks for your inputs. 

[LD_50]

1/250 should be fast enough for people walking if you pan the camera a bit with their movement.

 

I haven’t found the optical VF in my M camera all that useful for seeing outside the frame with my 35 Summilux. There just isn’t much outside the frame lines.

 

I think you’ll be better off having the camera set up prior to raising to your eye to shoot. Watch the action unfold and quickly raise to your eye and shoot. Practice will improve your results to match what you’re seeing from others.

[jaapv]

You don't really need a camera like the SL with zone focusing. I think a good compact with excellent AF like the Q would give you far more keepers -even far more shots.

[su25]

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1/250 should be fast enough for people walking if you pan the camera a bit with their movement.

 

I haven’t found the optical VF in my M camera all that useful for seeing outside the frame with my 35 Summilux. There just isn’t much outside the frame lines.

 

I think you’ll be better off having the camera set up prior to raising to your eye to shoot. Watch the action unfold and quickly raise to your eye and shoot. Practice will improve your results to match what you’re seeing from others.

You are spot on.... I checked again. Even those shot at 1/500s are not sharp. Obviously this zone focus setting and subject distance anticipation needs to be fine tuned. Thanks for your your inputs on VF and 35mm frame lines, I did not think of that at all.

 

 

You don't really need a camera like the SL with zone focusing. I think a good compact with excellent AF like the Q would give you far more keepers -even far more shots.

Unfortunately, Q is not an option, although I did give it a serious thought. Fuji x100s or its variant is on the list.

[Steve McGarrett]

Adapters are often a little bit off regarding registry distance, so don't trust the lens scale, first try manual focusing static subject at the distance you need, then look at the scale and next time set that value on the ring...

[jaapv]

You are spot on.... I checked again. Even those shot at 1/500s are not sharp. Obviously this zone focus setting and subject distance anticipation needs to be fine tuned. Thanks for your your inputs on VF and 35mm frame lines, I did not think of that at all.

 

 

Unfortunately, Q is not an option, although I did give it a serious thought. Fuji x100s or its variant is on the list.

Nothing wrong with the X100, or any of the many offerings in this style that are on the market.

[su25]

Adapters are often a little bit off regarding registry distance, so don't trust the lens scale, first try manual focusing static subject at the distance you need, then look at the scale and next time set that value on the ring...

 

Yes, indeed that is an issue. At 70 cm (closest focussing distance), I think I am closer than 70 cm. While, for subjects about 2m away, the focus distance shows more than 2m. And, to add to the confusion, I find focus peaking slightly off... when I zoom in, I find that that I need to adjust it again. This is for f1.4 MF and not zone focussing.

[johnwolf]

.... Then I tried setting infinity scale on the right side @ f8 & f11, but the min focus distance is more than 2.5m.... 

 

 

This is my basic approach - f8 or f11 at 250. But do you really need infinity on the right side? Closer focus is usually more important on the street. So maybe try moving the infinity indicator farther right to get more near-distance focus. If you can get acceptable far focus at 20', 30' or so, isn't that usually good enough? 

 

John 

Edited November 20, 2017 by johnwolf

[su25]

This is my basic approach - f8 or f11 at 250. But do you really need infinity on the right side? Closer focus is usually more important on the street. So maybe try moving the infinity indicator farther right to get more near-distance focus. If you can get acceptable far focus at 20', 30' or so, isn't that usually good enough? 

 

John 

Yes, 20'-30' is sufficient. However, on 35mm lens @ f11, if subject distance is set to 8' then 5' until 22' is in focus. The problem is when I need to get something at 3' in focus, then I have to set the focus distance at 4' and then I get 2' dof - from 3'-5'.

So, as LD_50 mentioned, I need to gauge subject distance correctly and move the focus ring accordingly. That would take a lot of practice.   

[su25]

This is a crop from lower left corner, the only section which was in focus. Shot at f11 1/200s ISO 250. If I remember correctly, I had 1.2m on the left side of the scale. And, very little dof as can be seen from the details on the t-short, although I was pretty close to the subjects.

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[johnwolf]

Yes, 20'-30' is sufficient. However, on 35mm lens @ f11, if subject distance is set to 8' then 5' until 22' is in focus. The problem is when I need to get something at 3' in focus, then I have to set the focus distance at 4' and then I get 2' dof - from 3'-5'.

So, as LD_50 mentioned, I need to gauge subject distance correctly and move the focus ring accordingly. That would take a lot of practice.   

 

Yeah, that's the thing with zone focusing, as opposed to hyperfocal focusing. It takes adjustment. Does the Distagon have a tab? If so, memorizing a few key tab positions will help. 

 

Using a scale focus Olympus XA2 lately has taught me move my body more to focus. Often a step back or forward, or even a lean in or out, is all it takes. If you can judge distance well, that can be pretty accurate, even at big apertures. 

 

John  

Edited November 20, 2017 by johnwolf

[jaapv]

People tend to forget that, on a digital camera, the DOF scales on lenses are too wide by at least one stop in both directions. I won't go into the technical reasons (again), but it is imperative to stop down at least one stop more than your DOF scale suggests! This is for prints up to A4. For larger prints, you need to stop down more.

 

Zone focusing AKA using DOF is determining the zone of acceptable unsharpness*. An image is sharp in one place only: the plane of focus.

Nor is the zone of focus "sharp" from front to back. It tapers off from the plane of optimum sharpness into the fuzziness of bokeh. The falloff differs per lens.

More importantly, it differs by subject matter too. Big contrasty blocks will exhibit more DOF that finely structured foliage. Grey, misty photographs will have nearly infinite DOF.

 

*This means a subjective judgement by the photograher.

[robgo2]

You don't really need a camera like the SL with zone focusing. I think a good compact with excellent AF like the Q would give you far more keepers -even far more shots.

 

Perhaps, but if the camera in hand is the SL and he wants to use zone focusing, then wishing that he had a Q will do no good.   

[su25]

Yeah, that's the thing with zone focusing, as opposed to hyperfocal focusing. It takes adjustment. Does the Distagon have a tab? If so, memorizing a few key tab positions will help. 

 

Using a scale focus Olympus XA2 lately has taught me move my body more to focus. Often a step back or forward, or even a lean in or out, is all it takes. If you can judge distance well, that can be pretty accurate, even at big apertures. 

 

John  

Yes, it does have a tab. I am trying to learn the focus distance for centre position, and quarter + half turn to the right and left.

 

 

People tend to forget that, on a digital camera, the DOF scales on lenses are too wide by at least one stop in both directions. I won't go into the technical reasons (again), but it is imperative to stop down at least one stop more than your DOF scale suggests! This is for prints up to A4. For larger prints, you need to stop down more.

 

Zone focusing AKA using DOF is determining the zone of acceptable unsharpness*. An image is sharp in one place only: the plane of focus.

Nor is the zone of focus "sharp" from front to back. It tapers off from the plane of optimum sharpness into the fuzziness of bokeh. The falloff differs per lens.

More importantly, it differs by subject matter too. Big contrasty blocks will exhibit more DOF that finely structured foliage. Grey, misty photographs will have nearly infinite DOF.

 

*This means a subjective judgement by the photograher.

Ah... that seems to be the issue "it is imperative to stop down at least one stop more than your DOF scale suggests" this explains why the dof is not as it should be as per the calculator and scale.

 

Good point on optimum sharpness at focal plane. Never crossed my mind. That explains quite a lot, especially for portraits....why the other eye is not as sharp as the one in focal plane even with a narrow aperture. Thank you for these inputs. Same reason why B&W appears sharper than colour - I thought it maybe due to slight difference in focal point for RGB.

 

Appreciate inputs from all of you. It has been a good learning experience for me.

[Joshua Lowe]

1/500 freezes humans moving at day to day walking speeds.

 

1/1000 freezes vehicles.

 

My daytime "at the ready" settings w/ a 35mm lens are auto ISO, 1/500, f8 or f11.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Joshua Lowe

[Irakly Shanidze]

1/250 sec is enough to freeze a ballet dancer in midair. So, if your pictures are not sharp at 1/250, this cannot be attributed to the motion blur. Someone gave you the most valuable practical advice: get your far distance within 10m. When composed correctly, almost any street shot only benefits from the lack of sharpness beyond 10m.

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Edited November 21, 2017 by Irakly Shanidze

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[Sandokan]

Firstly, practice at home. Stand a distance away from an object, guess the distance, bring up camera and lens and focus. Check the distance. Did you guess correctly. Then walk around and pick another object, repeat. Repeat. About 50x per night. Choose distances between 1-5m away. This will teach you to accurately guess distance and allow you to pre-focus when you see a scene unfolding.

 

Secondly - more obvious, did you consider to try a wider angle lens which has more DoF? Like 24 or 28mm?

 

 

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Edited December 25, 2017 by Sandokan