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rchrd

XY/CL design vs TL design

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The XY/CL is horrible. Honestly, who is going to buy this and say "Leica is like driving a Porsche" or "Leica is like a well crafted watch." to justify the high cost?

 

 

 

1. They could of raised the top half of the camera to avoid evf bump. Leica Q does this. 

2. Numbered dials or blank dials are better than adding a 90s electronic display. Info can be displayed on back LCD display. Now you have two displays drawing your attention.

 

T is far superior in terms of Leica's "Das Weisentliche" design philosophy. In fact, the T is more in line with German design as a whole. Dieter Rams, Adolf Loos, Ludwig Mies van der Rohe, The Bauhaus, etc. If they wanted a more classic style camera because the T is not charming enough to the masses, then make a crop sensor Leica Q that accepts TL lenses. 

 

 

Ferdinand Porsche: "A formally harmonious product needs no decoration, it should be through pure form."

 

 

 

Edited by rchrd

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I think the T is a somewhat awkward and not quite successful attempt at modernism, the XY simply a variation on the old Barnack shape, and rather well executed. A typical X series camera. The only thing that seems slightly misplaced is the shape of the viewfinder, which could be more elegant, although, the Leica Standard had dials on the top and a protruding viewfinder as well.

 

Rather smart by Leica to design two -probably- technically fairly similar cameras to appeal to different customer types.

 

We still have to wait to know what the top display does show. To me, it seems to be rather practical to have some information as the camera is hanging from its strap without having to lift it to look at the back.

 

To refer to Porsche is rather akward, just compare the present-day pumped-up steroids blob to the original svelte 911...

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For my taste a top display would be quite an advantage. I always missed it in many mirrorless, being used to it from DSLRs.

I agree the T/TL/TL2 has a more elegant design that what we see on this pictures, on the other side everybody complains there is no viewfinder inside, everybody says the camera should be small, etc. etc. 

In the end for me it will turn out how the camera feels in hand and how good the user interface will work on me. But I agree with you that the camera on these images doesnt look as pretty and clean as the TL2.

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The XY/CL is horrible. Honestly, who is going to buy this and say "Leica is like driving a Porsche" or "Leica is like a well crafted watch." to justify the high cost?

 

...

 

 

Ferdinand Porsche: "A formally harmonious product needs no decoration, it should be through pure form."

 

 

yep of course Porsche is right, 

in so many thinks( I love the 911)

 

.... I wonder what he would thing about  decoration like an ugly separate plastic  evf     

 

 

lambda.

Edited by lambda

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The EVF looks suspiciously like the one from the SL (on rear views) ...... which is large because of the additional optics needed to give a large clear viewfinder. 

 

I'm not sure how they could have squeezed this in any other way. Making it level with the top would have made the camera look substantially bigger.

 

Assuming it is APS-C there is no need for the main body to be larger than it is. 

 

I have never heard any grumbles about Leica cameras being too small ...... 

Edited by thighslapper

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They could have used the viewfinder shape of the ii and iii Barnacks, even to the extent of adding the "fake-rewind" ISO dial of the M10. Heck, they could have added the infinity lever as a dioptre correction control

.

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I have never used the T-series, but reading the reviews it seems that the two dial knobs needed to have their mechanical characteristics stiffened up during the two upgrades.   This may be a factor in their increased size.   Adding the small display between them makes sense -- the information (including DOF calculations) is available; I see it when using a T lens on my SL and it will be nice to have it in the CL.  Altogether I have not been terribly impressed by the T series' resemblance to a smart phone on steroids, so this sensible eye-level design is OK with me.

 

But where did the FN/video button go?

 

Edit:  I confess that I don't go around saying "this is like driving my Porsche," or "this looks as well-crafted as my Rolex."  Those sentiments belong in our Veblen forum, dedicated to the image of Leica, rather than images by Leica.

Edited by scott kirkpatrick

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The original Leica was no thing of beauty, nor were its offspring. Symmetry and a simple outline only took hold with the first M, which was often masked by the addition of a meter. The beauty of Porsches and Leicas tends to be recognised only by (some) aficionados, not by the dispassionate (i.e. those with no interest in cars or cameras). In both cases it is often associated with classic status and retro appeal - neither the 911 nor the M were celebrated for beauty on launch, but mainly for their performance.

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In my my eyes she is a beauty, can't wait connecting my 75 Summilux to her.

Maybe the "buckle" looks seen from the front a bit unusual to someone, but overlooking the top is perfect.

Same from the back or sides

With the colour I am not so sure, but that is always the same luxury problem.

But in the end i will go for the Stones: painted black

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But where did the FN/video button go?

 

 

I figured that one out.  The back of the camera (borrowed from the M10) has a "FN" button where the M10 has its "LV" button.  Since liveview is always on in an EVF camera, there is a button available.  I wonder what menu gymnastics will be required to make it replace the red video button.  If this is an eye-to-the-camera camera, the video start and stop control will be the shutter button.  The SL does a pretty nice job of keeping the still image and video settings completely separate.  Let's hope this reflects that thinking.

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The original Leica was no thing of beauty, nor were its offspring. Symmetry and a simple outline only took hold with the first M, which was often masked by the addition of a meter. The beauty of Porsches and Leicas tends to be recognised only by (some) aficionados, not by the dispassionate (i.e. those with no interest in cars or cameras). In both cases it is often associated with classic status and retro appeal - neither the 911 nor the M were celebrated for beauty on launch, but mainly for their performance.

 

I have to disagree with you there, Paul. For me, the I Model A was the best looking Leica ever. The only one that comes close is the II Model D in black and nickel. Of the Ms, the M3 is, of course, the best looking one of that line. None of the digital models come close. I like the look of the 'leaked' CL in black and with a small lens (no zooms please) it could look very nice. All of this is personal taste, of course. What appeals to me might not appeal to you and vice versa. Probably more important than its looks will be how the upcoming model handles and we will have to wait and see about that.

 

As for the TL, I saw Jono Slack with one that he was testing when I met him Wetzlar some years ago. He handed it to me and I just said 'that is too big for a compact camera' and handed it back to him. Some time later I had an opportunity to test one on the street and take some photos with it in the area around Leica Mayfair. Again, it did not appeal to me. Perhaps, I am too much of a traditionalist. It is very nice camera to look at, though.

 

William

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Well, I still don’t believe this is it. Is most likely an earlier prototype and Leica is having good fun releasing it and reading the comments. Look at the top material. Looks like not cut straight and like cheap plastic! Wonder if was made, most of it, with a 3d printer. Could be done. I hope the actual camera is something that is both functional and looks marvelous. Functional, I have no doubt.

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1. Making the camera taller jyst to get rid of the EVF bump? Excuse me, this seriously violate the Bauhaus principle.

 

2. Get rid of the LCD display top? How do you do the setting without taking to your eye level to shorten the time or shoot it is waist level? simply to give up this function mode for the outlook?

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Well, I still don’t believe this is it. Is most likely an earlier prototype and Leica is having good fun releasing it and reading the comments. Look at the top material. Looks like not cut straight and like cheap plastic! Wonder if was made, most of it, with a 3d printer. Could be done. I hope the actual camera is something that is both functional and looks marvelous. Functional, I have no doubt.

These are the only pictures of a new Leica camera and it corresponds to the rumors of what the Clooney would be. When I first heard that it would be APS-C I repeatedly refused to consider it and was repeatedly told if you see it you will want one and that from an AF system point of view I would want one. This is nothing like the camera I imagined but I would say it's probably it.

Edited by Chaemono

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XY/CL easily could have been more beautiful. Nobody is debating whether or not the XY/CL will be functional or have superior optics. So pointing that out is a non-starter for a conversation about the design.

 

Einst_stein. I think raising the top won't look out of balance. The M and Jony Ive's camera had a larger top. As Bauhaus' founder Rohe puts it: "Art is always a matter of proportions." 

 

 

 

Jaapv, I quoted Porsche to emphasize the high prevalence of aesthetics being married to engineering in german culture. Ferdinand Porsche is a german.

I don't think Germans are superior or anything, I just think that this approach has been traditionally adopted by Leica as well. It's to point out how terribly inconsistent the XY/CL design is with the rest of its product lineup and Leica's culture.

 

I think the Barnack Leica was as small and beautiful as a pure mechanical camera could get during the time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The XY/CL is horrible. Honestly, who is going to buy this and say "Leica is like driving a Porsche" or "Leica is like a well crafted watch." to justify the high cost?

 

leica.png

 

leica_2.jpg

 

1. They could of raised the top half of the camera to avoid evf bump. Leica Q does this. 

2. Numbered dials or blank dials are better than adding a 90s electronic display. Info can be displayed on back LCD display. Now you have two displays drawing your attention.

 

T is far superior in terms of Leica's "Das Weisentliche" design philosophy. In fact, the T is more in line with German design as a whole. Dieter Rams, Adolf Loos, Ludwig Mies van der Rohe, The Bauhaus, etc. If they wanted a more classic style camera because the T is not charming enough to the masses, then make a crop sensor Leica Q that accepts TL lenses. 

 

1407287455618.jpg

 

Ferdinand Porsche: "A formally harmonious product needs no decoration, it should be through pure form."

 

 

I agree.

 

 

The top plate is ugly. But there is another reason: the digital interface at the back is the past. The same goes for the M camera. The modal buttons and the four arrows wheel is an absurd interface. It was OK at the start of the digital revolution in photography, but now it looks old. During the last 10 years we have seen interfaces based on touch sensitive screens (for the control of "computer-like" functions: working with a menu). Those specific physical buttons and controls for working with a menu is... the Middle Ages in terms of interface design. And Leica has a T camera with a modern design, the TL camera. The XY camera is a step back. The M has to go towards the TL standards not the other way. 

Edited by rosuna

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Aren't the strap lugs a bit too thin? Especially towards the lateral.

Yes, is another thing about this mock up prototype that is a give away is not the real thing. Everything is off. Good eye!

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