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Confused about metering with my M2


n8fyn

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Hi,

 

I've just purchased my first meterless camera, and I've been having a blast using it. However, I'm super confused on what type of meter I should use to pair with my M2.

 

I've been reading forum discussions a lot and most people recommend incident, saying that it's more beginner friendly. However, my exposure is always incorrect when I use incident, but spot on when I use reflective.

 

I mainly shoot street, and general travel photography where I cannot get close to the subject. Is incident meter the wrong mode to use for me?

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Some people would recommand "F16 sunshine rule" ;) .

That's the way to go for freedom photos with LTM or M.

 

With M2 I used Leicameter MR4 when they were the only type of metering for Mby then.

Used some incident meter also (Gossen, Sekonic, Minolta) , but not always fast and reliable in my practice.

 

Now I would use the "reliable/quick/without-looking-in-the-finder" VCmeter II,   if I fancy to take seriously my photography ;) .

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In general, I am in the pro-incident meter -- and pro Sunny 16 rule -- camps, esp. with negative films. 

 

A lot of variables here -- at least one camera body and two meters if I'm reading correctly. 

 

What meters are you using? Have you confirmed if the incident meter produces the same "error" in exposure on a different camera?

 

Do you know anything about the M2's service history and/or have you confirmed its shutter speeds are accurate? 

 

Some of those answers could guide you toward troubleshooting. 

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Haven't you answered your own question - if it's 'spot on' with reflective what's the issue?  Both will give accurate readings if used properly. Both methods are legitimate and niether is right or wrong - but care needs to be taken with readings.

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In general, I am in the pro-incident meter -- and pro Sunny 16 rule -- camps, esp. with negative films. 

 

A lot of variables here -- at least one camera body and two meters if I'm reading correctly. 

 

What meters are you using? Have you confirmed if the incident meter produces the same "error" in exposure on a different camera?

 

Do you know anything about the M2's service history and/or have you confirmed its shutter speeds are accurate? 

 

Some of those answers could guide you toward troubleshooting. 

I get the same error in exposure for a digital camera too. refective metering works fine, so it's probably not the M2's fault. I think the fault is in user error -- I dont know where to point the incident meter for street photography. If incident meters are supposed to be measuring towards the light source, wouldn't I always point it into the sun?

 

If I want to shoot a scene with half sun and half shadow, but want to expose for the shadow, do I still bother metering the shadow portion of the scene or just adjust my exposure based on the difference of the two halves?

 

Haven't you answered your own question - if it's 'spot on' with reflective what's the issue?  Both will give accurate readings if used properly. Both methods are legitimate and niether is right or wrong - but care needs to be taken with readings.

no 'issue', just want to understand what I'm doing wrong with incident metering. 

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Hello N8fyn,

 

Welcome to the Forum.

 

The way to take a reading with an incident meter is to walk up to the subject & point the meter dome back at the camera.

 

Push the button.

 

Read the meter.

 

Done.

 

If your camera position is lit by the same light as your subject you can simply turn around away from your subject where you are standing at the camera position.

 

Point the meter dome away from the subject along a line going from the subject to the camera.

 

Push the button.

 

Read your exposure.

 

Done.

 

When the light source is very bright:

Some, not all, people, sometimes, not always, go to the subject.

 

Point the meter away from the subject, along a line mid-point between the camera & the light source.

 

Push the button.

 

Read the exposure.

 

Done.

 

Incident metering is usually quick & accurate with very little to go wrong. If done properly..

 

Because it is measuring the intensity of the light falling on to the subject.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Edited by Michael Geschlecht
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I use both an M2 and M5 so there is a mix of sunny 16 (more like sunny 11), reflected metering and incident metering depending on camera and what I am shooting.  Generally with incident if the camera is lit by the same source as the subject, I make sure the meter is oriented or angled the same as the camera.  If reflected I try and meter an average subject which is supposed to be 18 percent reflectance.  A grass lawn makes a great large 18 percent reflectance target.  

 

Now, I know you have read about opening up 1.5 to 2 stops if using a reflected meter in snow or at the beach or closing down 1.5 to 2 stops if using a reflected meter with a dark background.  Of course, you can purchase an 18% grey card and use a reflected meter and get the same results as using an incident meter (assuming the 18% card is in the same light as your subject).  Or just meter the palm of your hand and close down a stop.

 

I remember reading just the opposite several years ago concerning using an incident meter.  Can't remember which photo book on metering it is from but it recommended closing down one half stop if using an incident meter on a bright scene (beach or snow) and opening up a half stop if shooting a dark subject.  Again, I have never seen this piece of advice given by anyone else when talking about using different types of meters.  

 

Hope this helps and does not muddy the water so to speak.

Edited by ktmrider2
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I meter the shadows and the highlights using an app on my phone then usually just split the difference. I find there is generally a 5 stop difference between the two extremes so I dmay adjust more towards one or the other depending on my subject.

Hello N8fyn,

 

Welcome to the Forum.

 

The way to take a reading with an incident meter is to walk up to the subject & point the meter dome back at the camera.

 

Push the button.

 

Read the meter.

 

Done.

 

If your camera position is lit by the same light as your subject you can simply turn around away from your subject where you are standing at the camera position.

 

Point the meter dome away from the subject along a line going from the subject to the camera.

 

Push the button.

 

Read your exposure.

 

Done.

 

When the light source is very bright:

 

Some, not all, people, sometimes, not always, go to the subject.

 

Point the meter away from the subject, along a line mid-point between the camera & the light source.

 

Push the button.

 

Read the exposure.

 

Done.

 

Incident metering is usually quick & accurate with very little to go wrong. If done properly..

 

Because it is measuring the intensity of the light falling on to the subject.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

I use both an M2 and M5 so there is a mix of sunny 16 (more like sunny 11), reflected metering and incident metering depending on camera and what I am shooting. Generally with incident if the camera is lit by the same source as the subject, I make sure the meter is oriented or angled the same as the camera. If reflected I try and meter an average subject which is supposed to be 18 percent reflectance. A grass lawn makes a great large 18 percent reflectance target.

 

Now, I know you have read about opening up 1.5 to 2 stops if using a reflected meter in snow or at the beach or closing down 1.5 to 2 stops if using a reflected meter with a dark background. Of course, you can purchase an 18% grey card and use a reflected meter and get the same results as using an incident meter (assuming the 18% card is in the same light as your subject). Or just meter the palm of your hand and close down a stop.

 

I remember reading just the opposite several years ago concerning using an incident meter. Can't remember which photo book on metering it is from but it recommended closing down one half stop if using an incident meter on a bright scene (beach or snow) and opening up a half stop if shooting a dark subject. Again, I have never seen this piece of advice given by anyone else when talking about using different types of meters.

 

Hope this helps and does not muddy the water so to speak.

Thanks guys, super helpful

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Hi,

 

I've just purchased my first meterless camera, and I've been having a blast using it. However, I'm super confused on what type of meter I should use to pair with my M2.

 

I've been reading forum discussions a lot and most people recommend incident, saying that it's more beginner friendly. However, my exposure is always incorrect when I use incident, but spot on when I use reflective.

 

I mainly shoot street, and general travel photography where I cannot get close to the subject. Is incident meter the wrong mode to use for me?

 

 

My gut reaction would be to use a reflective measurement then.

It doesn't matter how you do it, as long as it works.

 

FWIW I use an incident reading when I'm in the same light as my subject. I usually just point it up or somehow try to capture the light that is falling on the subject. 

I use a reflective reading when I'm photographing something far away that is in different light to me, like if I'm in the shade and I'm photographing a scene in the bright light, or more typically the other way around.

The most important thing, regardless of how you do it is to occasionally think about the measurement you get rather than just applying it to the camera, that way over time your experience and confidence will grow and you won't need to meter much.

 

Welcome to the forum and good luck.

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If you have the bug and want to take using film further start by getting into the habit of taking reflective readings.

 

There are a lot of things that will give you an average reading, grass for example, but as you become more experienced you will be able to measure the contrast range of shadows and highlights. Armed with a sense of contrast in a scene (keep it in your head or take notes) you can then adjust the exposure and development to ensure you get both shadow and highlight detail outside the normal latitude of the film in scenes of high contrast or extend the tonal range in scenes of low contrast. Any development adjustments may be across all 36 exposures, but you can prioritise what you anticipate will be your best images in the development regime. I'm not suggesting using the Zone System, but subtle changes in exposure and development can make all the difference between getting all you want from an image as opposed to something that is 'good enough'.

 

You will then see a meter can be a creative tool and not an anchor.

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Of course, you can purchase an 18% grey card and use a reflected meter and get the same results as using an incident meter (assuming the 18% card is in the same light as your subject).

After reading http://www.bythom.com/graycards.htm I'm not too sure anymore that that approach is ideal.  However, unless n8fyn uses slide films it shouldn't matter.

Edited by Lukas F.
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And remember, don't get too hung up on the "correct" exposure.  Depending on your tastes and techniques (development and printing or scanning), it might be a couple stops different then another photographer using the same camera and shooting right beside you.

 

Also, negative film has a lot of latitude which is missing from digital or slide film.  Both black and white and color negative film prefers a bit more light (i.e. rating TriX at ISO 250 or 320 instead of 400) for optimum results.  And transparency film is just the opposite.  Most photographers exposed Kodachrome 64 with their meters set at either ISO 80 or 100. Having said that, pushing TriX a couple stops to ISO 1200-3200 for available light and seeing in just how dark conditions you can get a printable negative is fun as well.

 

Through the lens light meters became all the rage in the late 1960's or early 1970's because they worked about 90% of the time for the average photographer.  Ask me how I know (I am that old).  So if reflected metering is bringing home the bacon, keep using it but know the 10% of the time you need to not believe your meter (backlighting, snow/beach or the legendary coal mine).

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Incident readings (with the caveats already given of being in the same light as the subject and orientating the meter towards the camera, etc.) is IMO the most straightforward and can usually be relied upon to get you in the right ballpark. However, I think it is important to remember that incident meters are not some kind of magic device but essentially a reflective meter with a crude piece of white plastic stuck on it. This works very well in most kinds of light but IMO can give misleading results when the main source of light is either quite directional or close to the axis of the camera lens (for example, when the sun is very low in the sky). At such times, a reflective reading is often more reliable IMO.

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I try to put things in simple terms. Incident metering measures light falling onto a subject and reflective metering measures light reflected by the subject. In theory both readings should coincide with each other. Frequently they don't. I prefer incident metering for its consistency irrespective of the reflectivity of the subject. Reflective metering attempts to render a subject, regardless of its reflectivity, at somewhere between 13-18%; therefore it attempts to render a white egg 18%  gray, and a black cat 18% gray - as a photographer you then need to mentally apply the appropriate compensation. With properly incident metering technique, you don't need to apply the corrective factors for proper rendering. Most films, especially B&W, have sufficient latitude to compensate for photographer error, but transparency films (slides) aren't so forgiving- but nevertheless, may benefit from certain types of compensation (slight underexposure for greater brilliance/saturation of colors).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

hopefully this info will be useful to you as you learn more about the nuances of metering and exposure.

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Reflective metering attempts to render a subject, regardless of its reflectivity, at somewhere between 13-18%; therefore it attempts to render a white egg 18%  gray, and a black cat 18% gray - as a photographer you then need to mentally apply the appropriate compensation. With properly incident metering technique, you don't need to apply the corrective factors for proper rendering.

 

Really? You don't think that a photographer faced with a white egg or a black cat wouldn't find something else of average reflectance to meter from? Well I guess you proved your own point and could be right, there are some photographers who wouldn't.

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Really? You don't think that a photographer faced with a white egg or a black cat wouldn't find something else of average reflectance to meter from? Well I guess you proved your own point and could be right, there are some photographers who wouldn't.

He's just illustrating the point about 18% gray. It applies equally to photographing a wedding dress or a black car.

 

Made sense to me, anyway :)

Edited by Mute-on
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Just to clarify - I've never had to apply compensation for reflectance of objects when incident metering to achieve either a good solid negative or positive. However, if I wanted the object to step out of a normal rendering, yes, I might apply compensation based on film characteristic rendering, such as slightly underexposing transparencies to get more "snap". I do think incident metering is much easier for most people to achieve consistently good results, assuming they understand the proper technique, than reflective metering. My old Leica meters and modern cameras, of course, use reflective metering, but for ease of use and consistency I do prefer incident metering., especially with older cameras,

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Really? You don't think that a photographer faced with a white egg or a black cat wouldn't find something else of average reflectance to meter from? Well I guess you proved your own point and could be right, there are some photographers who wouldn't.

Most digital photographers I've come across rely whole heartedly on the metering of the camera, even setting to P mode and totally disregarding the scene in front of them. A lot of digital photographers apply successive approximation, they chimp and retake if the first attempt was artistically incorrect or exposed incorrectly. Martin Parr refers to the P mode as the Professional mode, but God help anyone taking him seriously, and applying the same blind approach to exposure in the analogue domain.

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Most digital photographers I've come across rely whole heartedly on the metering of the camera, even setting to P mode and totally disregarding the scene in front of them. A lot of digital photographers apply successive approximation, they chimp and retake if the first attempt was artistically incorrect or exposed incorrectly. Martin Parr refers to the P mode as the Professional mode, but God help anyone taking him seriously, and applying the same blind approach to exposure in the analogue domain.

 

I use = P[erfect] Av[Awesome Priority Tv[Totally Awesome Priority] M[ajestic] think anbout it !

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