Should I have just ordered the M10?

[Dr. G]

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A little background. I was trying out the Q vs the Sony RX1R ii a few weeks ago. I had ordered the Q and then had a change of heart and ordered the Sony instead. I had been shooting with it in low light recently and found some issues with the camera's responsiveness. In manual mode, the focus mechanism isn't very direct and in auto mode it doesn't always lock. Even when good focus is achieved in manual mode, the 42MP sensor seems prone to camera shake at slower shutter speeds.

 

I chose to return it today with an exchange for the Q, which Infound to be a great performer in manual focus mode, with auto it locked on nicely even in low light.

 

I keep thinking of the M10, though. Granted, it is significantly more money, but that's not the dilemma in making a decision. I've never shot a rangefinder before. Plus, I'm not very experienced in choosing aperture, ISO and shutter speed. Of course using the M would force me to change those things. I'm just on the fence about jumping into the deep end. From a financial position, I'm sure it wouldn't be a total loss if I chose to go back to the Q. It's just that I am captivated by the images people are getting with the M10.

 

Any thoughts? FWIW, these are some images I took with the RX1R ii at a recent automotive event. I like to take more impressionist types of photos. I apologize, as I can't embed on the forum from my iPad.

 

https://flic.kr/p/XXBJnj

https://flic.kr/p/YY8g8y

https://flic.kr/p/YZA28A

https://flic.kr/p/XXCDTN

https://flic.kr/p/YZARcG

https://flic.kr/p/BWinEJ

https://flic.kr/p/YY9uvJ

[Simon]

A couple of key considerations are obviously how much do you need and want autofocus and how much do you want alternative focal lengths? When you say you’re captivated by M images is it certain focal lengths, apertures or rendering styles that you’re interested in? If so that may be your answer. Go for the lens(es) that inspire you the most.

 

Many will argue the Q is an excellent camera to complement the M (and users here have both) especially when you feel like an easier point-n-shoot style of operation with full-frame quality (at the 28 mm focal length), but I understand if it’s not possible to keep the Q when starting out with M.

 

I wouldn’t worry too much about having to learn aperture, ISO and shutter speed. You have control over those already with the Q and the M has floating shutter and ISO modes. The only thing you’re really losing is autofocus. Besides, learning how to shoot manually is much of the joy of photography in my mind - as in the journey not just the destination. It’s a learning process that will never end. If it’s just results you’re after get a camera that does everything for you, then be disappointed when you can’t figure out how to make the camera do what you want it to (quickly). These days with live view and instant review you don’t have to waste hundreds of dollars on film learning the ropes.

 

Before proceeding I’d have a very careful think about which lens or lenses you want to start with and then asses all the pros and cons with that initial combination.

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[Simon]

PS, my favourite is the fourth one in that list. Nice soft rendering and blur on the people in the background.

[Chuck]

Two years ago, after having never owned a camera in my life and being age 66, I bought a Q.  The reason for this was my wife and I were traveling to interesting places and wanted more than the smartphone pictures she was getting.  In fact, on the same day about two weeks after a trip of getting no pictures and unbeknownst to either, we each ordered cameras.  I knew three things: 1) I wanted an excellent camera that was not too large, 2) I wanted a camera that could function completely automatically because I knew nothing about taking photographs, and one that could function as a manual camera as well if and when the time came for me to become more involved in the process, and 3) I decided that I was going have fun with the experience, and enjoy the learning aspect of it. I wanted to be serious about the process in a not too serious way.

 

The Q had just been released not many months before.  When I read about it I knew it was exactly the camera I was looking for, because it could go from full automatic to full manual.  I didn’t give a whit that it was a 28 mm fixed lens.  In fact, I didn’t know how a 28 mm focal length compared with, say, a 50 mm focal length, other than knowing that the 50 mm has a narrower field of view. I decided that I would happily shoot within the constraints of the focal length. I did know I didn’t want a camera with a zoom lens, which I felt would be constraining because of the “zooming decision” I would have to make before taking each photograph.  For me, that would be eliminating what I thought would be a large part of the fun in taking photos, that is, composing the shot using a fixed focal length.  Why should I care — considering that I knew nothing about photography at that point — if I was “composing” (possibly word abuse in this case) at this or that focal length?  At the point I was at, I wasn’t qualified to make any informed judgements on that anyway.  So, the Q turned out to be perfect for everything I then wanted and needed in a camera. I absolutely love it. As the two years have gone by I have increasingly used it more and more manually. I could not be happier with it!

 

I also thought, even before I bought the Q, that if things went well, I would likely want a rangefinder in the future.  I knew the rangefinder experience would be quite different from the Q (that’s why I bought the Q!). Like you, I had never shot a rangefinder before.  Like you, I was not (and am still not) very experienced in choosing aperture, ISO and shutter speed. But shooting with the Q and using it more manually over time got me to the point of being ready to jump into the deep end as you so aptly put it.  So, when the M10 came out and I had a chance to read about it, I very happily placed an order (I took delivery in early July). I couldn’t be happier with it.  So, now I own a Q and an M10, and plan on keeping and using both, since they are very different cameras and both excellent in their own way.  I am finding the process of shooting with the M10 very enjoyable. Yes, slower than the Q because of manual focus, but so what? I just shoot like that (but, one can zone focus with it quite easily, and that does not have to be slow).  I’m finding it more involving and I like that a lot.   Of course, the vast array of lenses is a major plus with the M10. 

 

After I got the Q, I spent months intensively reading the very helpful forum posts by informed members about M lenses and about various Leica rangefinders.  Along the way, I purchased Erwin Puts’s very interesting books as well, and became a subscriber to Sean Reid’s excellent website.  Also, I didn’t want to own a rangefinder and not have a lens, and did not want to feel “pressured” into getting a lens.  So, when I ordered the M10 I had a pretty good idea of what lenses I wanted. I used the few months' waiting period to gradually accumulate the lenses (all used).  The three I went with are: 35 mm f/2.8 Summaron from the mid 1960s; 21 mm Super-Elmar-M  f/3.4; and 50 mm f/2.4 Summarit. The hardest thing for me is deciding which 2 lenses (my self imposed limit) to take when I go on trips.  I really like each of these lenses. Perhaps in the future I’ll buy another lens (probably will), but that won’t be anytime soon.  

 

This has been my experience.  I hope it, along with comments of others, will help you make the right decision, whatever it is. I think Simon’s comments are spot on. Good luck, and enjoy the Q!

[Dr. G]

In terms of lenses, the two I would think about starting with are the summilux 35 and 50. For what I shoot I think these would be great. I'm going to an event in January with some celebrity chefs (Eric Ripert, Daniel Boulud, Michael Mina, Anthony Bourdain, etc.) in Grand Cayman. I'm going to be doing a fair amount of shooting at night as one of the big events is outdoors. I'm pretty sure the summilux 35 would be a good choice for that, as I think the noctilux would be overkill (and an expensive choice).

 

I'll also be shooting plated dishes, obviously indoor under lower lighting, but I'm not sure what the minimum focal lengths are for the 35 or 50. It's nice that the Q has a macro mode so I can get up close for shots like that.

[Dr. G]

PS, my favourite is the fourth one in that list. Nice soft rendering and blur on the people in the background.

Thanks. Of course with the Sony, I'm shooting with live view, so I can see things like that before releasing the shutter. With the M, I would either have to get the EVF or really learn DOF rather quickly.

[jaapv]

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Actually, it is quite nice to see everything in focus. I've said it before: If you are using a mirrorless you are composing the final image in the viewfinder. With an optical viewfinder like the M you are snipping pieces of reality as it unfolds before you. Once you have made that mental switch, the M becomes preferable. I would advise you not to buy the EVF during the learning process. It is too tempting to take the easy way.

[Dr. G]

Actually, it is quite nice to see everything in focus. I've said it before: If you are using a mirrorless you are composing the final image in the viewfinder. With an optical viewfinder like the M you are snipping pieces of reality as it unfolds before you. Once you have made that mental switch, the M becomes preferable. I would advise you not to buy the EVF during the learning process. It is too tempting to take the easy way.

Forgive me for asking, but does the Rangefinder have a diopter adjustment on the M10?

[a.noctilux]

Forgive me for asking, but does the Rangefinder have a diopter adjustment on the M10?

 

No diopter adjustment on the M10.

But with practice, one can easily use as is or joint a screw in correction diopter.

 

As your choice of 35 and 50mm lenses, that's nice...

may I suggest, for more comfortable framing, Summarit-M 2.4/75 or Apo-Summicron-M asph. 2/75mm which focus to 70cm for your "shooting plated dishes"

[Jeff S]

Forgive me for asking, but does the Rangefinder have a diopter adjustment on the M10?

One can visit a local optician and place trial diopters over the VF to determine need or strength. Then order one of the dedicated M10 diopters, which are larger than those for earlier models due to the larger VF opening.

 

Jeff

[marcg]

Forgive me for asking, but does the Rangefinder have a diopter adjustment on the M10?

 

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/277632-small-diopter-change-big-improvement/

[mdemeyer]

It does frustrate my wife a lot (who is a chef and sommelier) when she wants some quick food shots at an event and I have a 50mm on the M10. Better to keep the Q for that kind of work...

 

In terms of lenses, the two I would think about starting with are the summilux 35 and 50. For what I shoot I think these would be great. I'm going to an event in January with some celebrity chefs (Eric Ripert, Daniel Boulud, Michael Mina, Anthony Bourdain, etc.) in Grand Cayman. I'm going to be doing a fair amount of shooting at night as one of the big events is outdoors. I'm pretty sure the summilux 35 would be a good choice for that, as I think the noctilux would be overkill (and an expensive choice).

 

I'll also be shooting plated dishes, obviously indoor under lower lighting, but I'm not sure what the minimum focal lengths are for the 35 or 50. It's nice that the Q has a macro mode so I can get up close for shots like that.

[Dr. G]

One of the problems with reading the forums is that it's very easy to convince yourself you "need" something.  I just pulled the trigger on a silver M10 - it should arrive tomorrow.  I haven't picked up any lenses yet, but for now I'll just tuck it away into my bag until I decide what lenses to go with.  Originally I was thinking 35 and 50 summilux.  Being that I'm keeping the Q for my "easy" camera.  Maybe the 50 and 90 would be a better choice for the M. 

 

I'm both excited and nervous to be taking the plunge into rangefinder land.

[pico]

I might have drifted to the wrong topic, so delete if necessary.

 

If the early 35mm Summilux is not worthy at ƒ1.4, but as good as a Summicron at ƒ2, why don't y'all use it at ƒ2?

.

Edited November 6, 2017 by pico

[jdlaing]

And as the hook and bait is gently taken Leica very firmly jerks the pole to set the hook and begin to reel in the catch............

[pico]

And as the hook and bait is gently taken Leica very firmly jerks the pole to set the hook and begin to reel in the catch............

 

Explain

[CatanDave]

Chuck......very interesting. After 20 years and many different systems and lenses I settled on 21mm 3.4, 35 summaron and 50 summicron, almost exactly the same as you.

[a.noctilux]

One of the problems with reading the forums is that it's very easy to convince yourself you "need" something.  I just pulled the trigger on a silver M10 - it should arrive tomorrow.  I haven't picked up any lenses yet, but for now I'll just tuck it away into my bag until I decide what lenses to go with.  Originally I was thinking 35 and 50 summilux.  Being that I'm keeping the Q for my "easy" camera.  Maybe the 50 and 90 would be a better choice for the M. 

 

I'm both excited and nervous to be taking the plunge into rangefinder land.

 

If you want a good 50mm that can be close focus (for your plate preparations photos) and usable to infinity with M10, have a look at Summicron DR or SOMNI:

 

see my post here, https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/269876-m10-can-be-used-with-somni-50mm-dr-full-range/

 

close focus to 48cm even without the close focus attachment (goggles) when LV/EVF is used.

[jdlaing]

Explain

Another one caught and firmly in the grasp of Leica.

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[m2man]

Buy a M9 and the 35 & 50.  If you get used lenses, there isn't even any $ on the line.  If you like the M experience, then a M10 is an easy upgrade, and I doubt you'd lose anything on the M9 even.

 

The Q is totally a gateway drug.  :-)