Misaligned images on II(D) negatives

[jerzy]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

wrong, wrong, wrong! what I wrote. Reversing the image on hegative (up/down, left/right) confuses me!

Can someone with clear mind and more understanding confirm that casette side of the frame is affected and the film goes too far into the camera? 

I will refrain from further, possibly stupid ideas of mine until I'll get confirmation on above :-)

[schattenundlicht]

Unfortunately, by now I am thoroughly confused about the orientation matter myself, and I would appreciate clarification from a third party

 

[edit:] Since I currently do not develop myself (I know, shame, shame...), I no longer remember, which orientation the border text on the negative has, with regard to the film leader tongue, and I cannot check, because the lab, of course, cuts off the leader while processing. Please forgove my hybrid stupidity

Edited November 5, 2017 by schattenundlicht

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[jankap]

Gemach, gemach. I gave up the chemical work too.

The numbering of the frames  is an indication too.

 

Tom´s message could be an indication. Was the FILCA during the same time as the II?

If you don´t have a FILCA, I can send you one.

Jan

Burgthann 

Edited November 5, 2017 by jankap

[schattenundlicht]

Gemach, gemach. I gave up the chemical work too.

The numbering of the frames  is an indication too.

 

Tom´s message could be an indication. Was the FILCA during the same time as the II?

If you don´t have a FILCA, I can send you one.

Jan

Burgthann 

Yes, the FILCA would be the contemporary can to go with the II.

 

If this were the solution, I would gladly buy meter stock of film in the future and be even more "original" when airing my II (D). Unfortunately, I do not have access to a FILCA and would gladly receive one. Since I do not have a darkroom, I would then get a changing bag. Maybe this will be a first step towards starting developing again

 

Kind regards

Mathias

[jankap]

I shall send you a FILCA type B. OK?

But don´t send the spool of the FILCA (or the complete FILCA) to the laboratory. Please!!!!

 

Meter stock is not an advantage, therefore.

You can manipulate a standard cassette before the test and make the reverse action afterwards.

Jan

 

PS

There are types A to D, I believe. B is an older one, could fit.

Edited November 5, 2017 by jankap

[schattenundlicht]

This can be avoided by using a spacer washer at the bottom of the standard cassette - an old trick I knew in the 1960s. The thickness makes up for the amount the standard cassette is shorter than the FILCA. The barnacks were designed so the FILCA fit tight (top to bottom), and shorter cassettes will tend to work down until they hit the baseplate catch, pulling that end of the film across the guide rails. Leica changed with the M series so the FILCA would no longer fit, so they made the IXMOO cassette. The IIIf (red dial) and IIIg cameras added a "finger" guide to the baseplate that keeps the film aligned, but it can't be used on the earlier models as the body casting needs a channel that was added with the IIIf. Here's a standard, IXMOO, and FILCA so you can see the difference.

Cassette sizes.jpg

Since Tom and Paul might very well be spot on, has anyone experience using washers in this way and could give me a guide as to sizing until I can get hold of a FILCA? I definitely do not want to damage the camera in any way during my 6 months of dealer warranty! Should the washer just be dropped in before the modern can or should I fasten it to the film can (propably with double-sided sticky tape)?

 

If this were the reason, indeed, propably everybody shooting LTMs with modern film cans should experience this phenomenon to more or less degree. Is there a majority or substantial minority out there who do not experience any misalignment at all? This could speak against the suggested solution but could point to a fault in my camera.

 

LTM users, please be polled!

Edited November 5, 2017 by schattenundlicht

[willeica]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

wrong, wrong, wrong! what I wrote. Reversing the image on hegative (up/down, left/right) confuses me!

Can someone with clear mind and more understanding confirm that casette side of the frame is affected and the film goes too far into the camera? 

I will refrain from further, possibly stupid ideas of mine until I'll get confirmation on above :-)

 

The top is the bottom, so to speak. Therefore, the film cassette needs to be further into the camera (nearer the top of the camera as Paulmac says) to avoid the sprocket holes being in the picture frame. That is why I push the cassette in as far as I can and also the take up spool. The situation is not always curable, but in most cases it is minor. The 1926 I Model A which I tested recently had only a minor degree of sprocket overlap which did not affect actual picture taking. It required a bit of a push to get a modern film cassette into the film chamber. The question is whether the issue is significant enough to need to go to all of the palaver with FILCAs and bulk film.

 

William

[schattenundlicht]

The top is the bottom, so to speak. Therefore, the film cassette needs to be further into the camera (nearer the top of the camera as Paulmac says) to avoid the sprocket holes being in the picture frame. That is why I push the cassette in as far as I can and also the take up spool. The situation is not always curable, but in most cases it is minor. The 1926 I Model A which I tested recently had only a minor degree of sprocket overlap which did not affect actual picture taking. It required a bit of a push to get a modern film cassette into the film chamber. The question is whether the issue is significant enough to need to go to all of the palaver with FILCAs and bulk film.

 

William

I am not a perfectionist with old gear with regard to submilimeter loss of image boders. For me, that is not the pertinent issue here.

 

Yet, with a fine mechanical device like a Leica LTM, it is against my fine-mechanical instinct (as a cardiologist, not a technician) to put excentric load on any 85 year old gear trains or sprockets or whatever. If possible, I would like to avoid this.

 

The worst case scenario of losing film debris into the depths of an inaccessible interior of an LTM seems rather unlikely here, as film transport feels smooth (well, LTM-smooth) when operating the camera.

 

Mathias

[jankap]

I have a IIIf and have no problems with the standard cassette.

The film has to be fed very carefully into the sprockets. And the film strip has to be cut according to Leitz manual.

Jan

[schattenundlicht]

I have a IIIf and have no problems with the standard cassette.

The film has to be fed very carefully into the sprockets. And the film strip has to be cut according to Leitz manual.

Jan

 

Jan - this is because Leica changed the design on the 111F by adding a film locating prong on the base cover. When the cover is fitted to the camera the prong forces the film into the correct position.

 

The 111F has no problem using modern cassettes but the earlier cameras are not designed to take these.

 

Paul's and Tom's posts do explain nicely, why me too does not experience any problems on my IIIf.

[jankap]

Jan - this is because Leica changed the design on the 111F by adding a film locating prong on the base cover. When the cover is fitted to the camera the prong forces the film into the correct position.

 

The 111F has no problem using modern cassettes but the earlier cameras are not designed to take these.

 

So a washer (as Tom wrote) would solve the problem. 

Nevertheless I´ll send a FILCA to Matthias. He can decide then, if the height is the problem.

Has his camera the "B" timing, so that he can see the film?

How thick should the washer (Unterlegscheibe) be? Perhaps out of plastic. Steel could damage something, if it is too thick.

Jan

Edited November 5, 2017 by jankap

[jerzy]

Mathias - the orientation is that the fault is on the CASSETTE side of the camera and that the film is located slightly below the film gate opening so the film gate is actually over the sproket holes.

 

What is needed is that the film is located further into the camera ie. nearer to the TOP cover.

 

I just checked with my M3, the image is fully reversed, like paulmac wrote.

While FILCA solved this problem I would check yet another possibility on the camera.

Rewind "fork" is secured with the ring hidden under rewind button and with the screw seen on the picture. The hole for the screw is not fully in the middle of the ring, the ring may be mounted as well upside-down. How the ring is mounted impacts as well position of the fork, thus position of the casette. Playing in ths area could most probably adapt the camera to accomodate new casettes.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[jerzy]

and  (probably) my last comment. I just compared negatives taken with the same Leica III 163xxx from approx 1965 ( I used bulk film at that time and reloadable casettes of russian origin, FILCA copy) and from last year (when I used standard film loaded into casette). It  shows that old negatives are clean within the sprockets while negatives from last year overlap the sprockets. 

Looking how the fork and rewind is constructed there is small playroom of approx 0,3mm where you may force casette down (towards the top of camera) by adding shims under the lock inside the bottom cover. If more playroom would be needed than it can be done as well however irreversably  - using Filca the aligment would be wrong.

[TomB_tx]

For the washer I mentioned, 1/4 inch or 5 mm flexible craft foam can make a good one, as it compresses and doesn't need to be exact thickness. Cut a disk that just fits inside of the crimped edge of the cassette, and a center hole large enough to go around the end of the spool and not bind as the spool turns. When you load the camera top down, just place it in the end of the cassette before you put the baseplate on.

And when changing film remember to find an recover it. I remember leica shooters searching through the grass for ones they let drop when reloading in the field.

[schattenundlicht]

For the washer I mentioned, 1/4 inch or 5 mm flexible craft foam can make a good one, as it compresses and doesn't need to be exact thickness. Cut a disk that just fits inside of the crimped edge of the cassette, and a center hole large enough to go around the end of the spool and not bind as the spool turns. When you load the camera top down, just place it in the end of the cassette before you put the baseplate on.

And when changing film remember to find an recover it. I remember leica shooters searching through the grass for ones they let drop when reloading in the field.

That seems like a cool, reversible, atraumatic thing to try! Would you, or anybody else who has a FILCA at their hands, be so kind to measure the difference in height between it and the modern film can?

 

Thanks!

[jankap]

The standard can has 42 mm, together with the spool 47-48 mm.

The FILCA measures 50-51 mm over all (inclusive the mechanism). The can itself is 48 mm.

Jan

[wlaidlaw]

Another thought - maybe try a different take up spool and see if the misalignment changes. I have changed the spools in my later Barnacks to Leotax spring loaded spools which are far easier to extract, particularly on my Reid and Sigrist Model III, where the take up spool spindle is a tight fit in the spool. 

 

Wilson

[a.noctilux]

Some years ago, I had this "trouble" with my newly acquired and CLAed Leica Standard.

I wrote then that this is "feature of old '30's Leica", not found yet solution that I applied to later acquired Leica II and III.

 

I measured the new cassette and old metal Leitz.

Found that new is shorter about 1mm to 2mm depend on brand.

 

My solution after trying some is a simple washer of 1mm thick on the baseplate, where sits the cassette.

Cardboard round washer was used but not stays in place.

 

Then I use by now 1mm thick rubber ring ( "plumber rings" ) that solved the "trouble" on my screwmount Leica before "f".

Edited November 6, 2017 by a.noctilux

[romualdo]

Jan - this is because Leica changed the design on the 111F by adding a film locating prong on the base cover. When the cover is fitted to the camera the prong forces the film into the correct position.

 

The 111F has no problem using modern cassettes but the earlier cameras are not designed to take these.

does that apply to both "Red" & "Black" Dial IIIf's? - an earlier comment stated red dial IIIf's & IIIg's

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[a.noctilux]

Here is a picture of modified baseplate (this one is for Leica III transformed to IIIf)

 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

those rings = what I tried out, all 1mm thick (hard and soft)

the right one is soft rubber fit cut to size,

so it wouldn't fall when put in place

 

with some baseplate, glueing is necessary

just try, wind on may be stiff but after using one roll, the wind force become normal

Edited November 6, 2017 by a.noctilux