reddot925 Posted October 25, 2017 Share #1 Posted October 25, 2017 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Couple of Leica shops that deal with pre-owned lens have now asked me if I have this lens to trade, as they said many customers of theirs are asking for this older version. I know the version 3, the ASPHERICAL, or AA is a popular collectors lens. But I thought this version 4 pre-FLE is just basically the same as the FLE with the focusing shift solved? Apparently I now hear the signature of the photos are different and many actually prefer this older version, is this the case? Or just the case of lens fashion cycle going round and round? This was not a limited production lens no? That probably rules out the collectors imho. Edited October 25, 2017 by reddot925 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 25, 2017 Posted October 25, 2017 Hi reddot925, Take a look here Why the resurgence of Summilux 35mm ASPH (11873, pre FLE)?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
01af Posted October 25, 2017 Share #2 Posted October 25, 2017 Not entirely clear what lens you're talking about. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted October 25, 2017 Share #3 Posted October 25, 2017 Not entirely clear what lens you're talking about. It is true that the the thread title has the wrong code number but I think you are clear which lens the OP is referring to. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpclee Posted October 25, 2017 Share #4 Posted October 25, 2017 Not sure if t have heard of such a resurgence but if true could it be due to people buying it to use on the SL or another mirrorless, in which case the focus shift won’t be an issue with WYSIWYG viewing? I remember the MTFs of the pre-FLE being a tad bit weaker than the FLE. Although the optical formula is the same, reportedly, it doesn’t mean that they can’t have differences other than than the floating element. If I remember correctly the Hasselblad CFi / CFE lenses had the same formulas as the CF lenses but were superior in IQ due to other improvements inside the lens like interior linings or maybe even production tolerance or optical glasses. The optical formula is just one factor. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddot925 Posted October 25, 2017 Author Share #5 Posted October 25, 2017 In that case, I suggest do not reply as the reply is even more meaningless. Not entirely clear what lens you're talking about. 2 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddot925 Posted October 25, 2017 Author Share #6 Posted October 25, 2017 It's 11874?! Can the MOD please change the title if possible? Thank you @wattsy. It is true that the the thread title has the wrong code number but I think you are clear which lens the OP is referring to. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwesi Posted October 25, 2017 Share #7 Posted October 25, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Couple of Leica shops that deal with pre-owned lens have now asked me if I have this lens to trade, as they said many customers of theirs are asking for this older version. I know the version 3, the ASPHERICAL, or AA is a popular collectors lens. But I thought this version 4 pre-FLE is just basically the same as the FLE with the focusing shift solved? Apparently I now hear the signature of the photos are different and many actually prefer this older version, is this the case? Or just the case of lens fashion cycle going round and round? This was not a limited production lens no? That probably rules out the collectors imho. Interesting. I have always felt that the Non FLE(previous) version has a much better rendering in the out of focus areas than the FLE. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddot925 Posted October 25, 2017 Author Share #8 Posted October 25, 2017 That's what I read from the old reviews comparing them as well. Although I had the lens briefly I did find the central sharpness of the FLE makes me overlook the out of the focus areas initially, at least until now. Interesting. I have always felt that the Non FLE(previous) version has a much better rendering in the out of focus areas than the FLE. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve McGarrett Posted October 25, 2017 Share #9 Posted October 25, 2017 11873 is the (double) Aspherical you were talking about... no wonder it's pricey If you were referring to 11874 "Asph", I don't know, I see it at around 2200-2500€ in mint condition, far lower than FLE version... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted October 25, 2017 Share #10 Posted October 25, 2017 If I were in the market for either of the 35 f/1.4 ASPH, I would be seeking the non-FLE version, myself. A bit less "fat" around the mount, and 20% lighter weight - the FLE mechanism adds weight and girth. And, of course, less expensive. Plus - I never experienced noticeable focus shift when I used the non-FLE previously, possibly because with that lens I just never used f/2-f/2.8-f/4. Either I needed f/1.4 for low light - or I used f/5.6 or smaller for bright light. It seemed sort of pointless to pay for f/1.4, and then use f/2 or 2.8. I can't say I really noticed a huge difference in rendering with the FLE version the one time I had one to try. I do know the non-FLE blurred backgrounds were quite nice. https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/35mm_f/1.4_ASPH_Summilux-M https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/35mm_f/1.4_ASPH.fle_Summilux-M 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddot925 Posted October 25, 2017 Author Share #11 Posted October 25, 2017 Ken Rockwell's site lists the weight difference at only 10g but I see the site you linked listed at 70g which would be very noticeable. Does the focus shift occur when you focus at let's say when you focus while on F2.8 OR does it happen when you focus on something at F1.4 and then move the aperture to other values? If I were in the market for either of the 35 f/1.4 ASPH, I would be seeking the non-FLE version, myself. A bit less "fat" around the mount, and 20% lighter weight - the FLE mechanism adds weight and girth. And, of course, less expensive. Plus - I never experienced noticeable focus shift when I used the non-FLE previously, possibly because with that lens I just never used f/2-f/2.8-f/4. Either I needed f/1.4 for low light - or I used f/5.6 or smaller for bright light. It seemed sort of pointless to pay for f/1.4, and then use f/2 or 2.8. I can't say I really noticed a huge difference in rendering with the FLE version the one time I had one to try. I do know the non-FLE blurred backgrounds were quite nice. https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/35mm_f/1.4_ASPH_Summilux-M https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/35mm_f/1.4_ASPH.fle_Summilux-M Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddot925 Posted October 25, 2017 Author Share #12 Posted October 25, 2017 (edited) Yes I mean 11874 for this thread, sorry! Mod, can you fix the title to 11874 please! As for price I'm not sure when last you check but now it's around 2500-3000 euros, it's actually gone up. 11873 is the (double) Aspherical you were talking about... no wonder it's pricey If you were referring to 11874 "Asph", I don't know, I see it at around 2200-2500€ in mint condition, far lower than FLE version... Edited October 25, 2017 by reddot925 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpclee Posted October 25, 2017 Share #13 Posted October 25, 2017 Personally, I’d pay up just to have the FLE’s more compact and all-metal hood. If I were in the market for either of the 35 f/1.4 ASPH, I would be seeking the non-FLE version, myself. A bit less "fat" around the mount, and 20% lighter weight - the FLE mechanism adds weight and girth. And, of course, less expensive. Plus - I never experienced noticeable focus shift when I used the non-FLE previously, possibly because with that lens I just never used f/2-f/2.8-f/4. Either I needed f/1.4 for low light - or I used f/5.6 or smaller for bright light. It seemed sort of pointless to pay for f/1.4, and then use f/2 or 2.8. I can't say I really noticed a huge difference in rendering with the FLE version the one time I had one to try. I do know the non-FLE blurred backgrounds were quite nice. https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/35mm_f/1.4_ASPH_Summilux-M https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/35mm_f/1.4_ASPH.fle_Summilux-M Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 25, 2017 Share #14 Posted October 25, 2017 The culprits are Leica SL and Sony A7 bodies i suspect. No focus shift at working aperture on mirrorless cameras Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted October 25, 2017 Share #15 Posted October 25, 2017 Ken Rockwell's site lists the weight difference at only 10g but I see the site you linked listed at 70g which would be very noticeable. Does the focus shift occur when you focus at let's say when you focus while on F2.8 OR does it happen when you focus on something at F1.4 and then move the aperture to other values? I happen to own both and my scales shows 343g for the non-FLE and 338g for the FLE - both with original hood and rear cap. Without hood and front cap the FLE is 319g, the Non-FLE is 320g. Where the focus shift of the older version will be noticable depends on the calibration of the individual lens. During film times it was custom to calibrate a lens for a f-stop which was supposed to be used in most cases. My older version bought in 2000 was originally calibrated at f:2.8. So you would notice the focus shift if you opened it to f 1.4 but hardly noticed it at f4. When the lens was coded in 2007 for the M8 it was recalibrated. Now it was exact at f 1.4 but shifted seriously at f 2.8 or f 4. Unlike Zeiss - who declared this practice clearly for the 1.5/50mm Sonnar, Leica never told customers about this change. So many users - like me - „discovered“ the focus shift suddenly and got worried about it. A sensible practice like described by adan above would have avoided some lengthy discussions here and elsewhere, if Leica had been clear about the different possibilities of calibrating the lens. My answer to your original question, why one gets the impression of a „resurgence“ of the older version may seem harsh, though I can‘t see it different: It‘s marketing from the side of users of the old version, who want to sell it. The lens was expensive and so the margins selling it for a higher or lower price are quite high. If someone wants to sell something he won‘t say: well there is something better around, but I still like it, so please give me a high price. He will say: It‘s much better than the new version, much better bokeh, less weight, and silver versions don‘t show focus shift (which is completely nuts) and many other things. It‘s legitimate which does not mean it‘s true. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecar Posted October 25, 2017 Share #16 Posted October 25, 2017 Mmm... maybe. Yet, I have a copy of the pre-FLE with no focus shift that I can detect, even when checking through the EVF on the M240 or the M10 at x10 magnification. I'm sure there must be some, but I can't see how it would affect my pictures in real life. Btw, I also have a Sonnar 50/1.5 ZM, and that's an entirely different story, where focus shift is very obvious and requires user adjustment. Also, I briefly tested the FLE against my pre-FLE a while ago and found that the rendering of the pre-FLE was indeed more pleasing to my eyes, indeed primarily in the OOF areas. Perhaps it's subjective, perhaps it's due to the individual lens copies under consideration, but my experience (admittedly limited to a test during a couple of days) led me to keep the pre-FLE and return the new one. I should add that I have no intention of selling my pre-FLE anytime soon... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted October 25, 2017 Share #17 Posted October 25, 2017 Mmm... maybe. Yet, I have a copy of the pre-FLE with no focus shift that I can detect, ..... I can't see how it would affect my pictures in real life. For: as above - in practice its a very usable lens and its the cheapest Leica 35mm Summilux which offers very good wide open performance. Against: Not a lot. Perhaps this is why its become better appreciated? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted October 26, 2017 Share #18 Posted October 26, 2017 It is an AMAZING lens. It was getting low in price... we are maybe witnessing a simple market correction. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelwj Posted October 26, 2017 Share #19 Posted October 26, 2017 I'm surprised at how low it is really, not much more than a 35 Summicron ASPH. Is this "resurgence" just like the film "resurgence" I always hear about at the same time as labs continue to close and FujiFilm continues to remove Film from their name, one product at a time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpclee Posted October 26, 2017 Share #20 Posted October 26, 2017 The resurgence of film is actually quite real. Film sales have been growing steadily in every one of the last 3-4 years. Kodak is bringing back films that were previously discontinued (eg. Ektachrome). Ilford is now profitable as opposed to nearing bankrupt. There are several specialty film labels that have sprung up. And in big US cities labs are being started again (some with the help of Kodak). Check the prices of used film gear and you will see a lot of items having doubled in price in the last two years, like my cherished little Contax T3. The problem with film was never that there was no interest, but that the fear of being abandoned drove shooters away and the dumping of equipment on the used market. Also, production of films used processes that were meant for tens of millions of rolls a year that was not economical when film became niche, but that is changing, too. Film is now a viable business and I won't be surprised if manufacturers start making film equipment again in the next few years, albeit in niche rather than mass market quantities. I'm surprised at how low it is really, not much more than a 35 Summicron ASPH. Is this "resurgence" just like the film "resurgence" I always hear about at the same time as labs continue to close and FujiFilm continues to remove Film from their name, one product at a time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.