M10 Artifacts

[abphotog]

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Hello everyone, long time reader first time posting.  I purchased a Leica M10 from Camtec in Montreal almost two weeks ago and I'm in love with it.  I used it on a few shoots and just recently on a weekend getaway. More often then I'd like to admit, I miss the exposure and rely on the dng to recover.  So when recovering the shadows in an image I underexposed dramatically, I was surprised to see red, blue and green pixels lighting up all over the place on the image.  Does anyone know what these could be? I've never experienced this with any other digital camera.  And I don't think it's dust, these are pixel sized points.  

 

Thanks in advance! 

 

Andrew

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[jdlaing]

Chroma noise. That’s normal on an underexposed image when trying to pull it back.

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[abphotog]

Chroma noise. That’s normal on an underexposed image when trying to pull it back.

Yeah I thought so too, however what troubled me was the fact that they appear on the same pixels. I assume a sensor map might fix that, no?

[jaapv]

What ISO value and how much recovery?

[abphotog]

100 and over 4 stops.  I also have another question for you guys, I'm sure it's been addressed before but I'm not sure if it's normal, I'm getting horizontal lines running through high iso images (as if the iso is pushed sooc).  Heres a crop from with an exposure increase on a vertical image to show what I'm talking about: 

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[jdlaing]

Yep. That’s pretty much normal above certain iso’s As well.

I don’t see any horizontal lines but I do see vertical.

Edited October 24, 2017 by jdlaing

[jaapv]

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100 is a pull value and reduces DR. Not surprising that a 4-stop shadow lifting produces some nasties. I would use 200 and get a bit more near correct exposure if I were you.

[tobey bilek]

Sensors are fixed ISO value.  Everything else is electronic push or pull.  

 

Electronics cause defects.

 

Remember, if it is the internet, it must be true-  not

[evikne]

100 is a pull value and reduces DR. Not surprising that a 4-stop shadow lifting produces some nasties. I would use 200 and get a bit more near correct exposure if I were you.

What is actually M10’s base ISO? I think Thorsten Overgaard once said it was somewhere between 100 and 200. I think it is strange if we cannot set the camera exactly to the base ISO with any settings.

[adan]

135-ish - there is a whole thread already running (since last Spring) on ISO and DR, which raises all those points.

 

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268833-iso-100-on-m10/

[evikne]

Thanks for an interesting thread. I haven't seen it before, because that was just before I joined the forum.

[preneeth]

Hello!

I experience the same issue with my new Leica M10. I see a lots of red pixels in the shadow areas of the image, when I push the shadows. 

Is this normal?

[jaapv]

Depends on how far you push the shadows. Better to expose correctly...

[blacksinner]

yes ive seen this on long exposure also. mainly on under exposed area. m10 is the most difficult modern camera i've ever use. 

[preneeth]

Edited in the Adobe camera raw editor in Photoshop. Exposure +1,5 and Shadow +50 in the slider. ISO 100. I know, I just got my camera and was taking pictures on the way to work when I noticed how different (but fun) it is to correctly exposure a photo in bright sunlight when using RF. However at my office when I played around with the sliders in Photoshop I noticed those "red pixels".

 

So I guess my Leica M10 is just behaving normally ? Even though I can push images from my Xpro-2 to the same level without (or much less) artifacts. 

[pgh]

It's been well covered here that the sensors Leica sources don't produce files that are as robust as other companies when it comes to resolution, highlight recovery and included in that - exposure latitude. M10 files hold up best to shadow recovery but they are still subpar to others, as you're seeing here. Usually, anything over 1.5 stops on the M10 and you're in sketchy territory in my experience - depending on your tolerance. But yea, this is normal. Also, ISO 100 is sort of a waste unless you need a slower shutter speed because ISO 200 produces a more robust file. You can't shoot the native ISO to get the best out of the sensor which is a bit ridiculous but that's how it is. ISO 200 is the best you can do. 

Edited April 24, 2018 by pgh

[preneeth]

Thanks for your answer pgh

[Tailwagger]

My experience is a bit different. I regularly shoot to expose properly highlights and pull from shadows to good effect well beyond 1.5 stops.  Something I can't pull off with the Q/240. A while back when I first acquired an M10, I published a quick post process of a classic for me scenario to satisfy the curiosity of others. Here the overall exposure was pushed 2 stops with the shadow slider pushed to +72 in LR. So similar to you're scenario. Highlights dropped to pull back the clouds. Could easily have pushed the blacks/shadows up another stop or two if I had desired to...(just went back and tested that on the original in LR). ISO 100 as well.  Fairly certain that the lens was the Zeiss Distagon 35mm. No such artifacts in this result at all. 

 

 

[preneeth]

Hello again!

 

I have almost no problem att for example at 500 ISO and higher when i push it like 2 ev and 100% shadows in Photoshop. It only appears when trying to push shadows and exposure for an underexposure image att at least 100-400 ISO.

 

Tailwagger, do you have possibility to share the exact image abowe in dng-format so I can experiment and compare with my amount of shadow recovery? Or if not, just how the histogram locked, was it like Exposure to the left ?

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[Tailwagger]

Hello again!

 

I have almost no problem att for example at 500 ISO and higher when i push it like 2 ev and 100% shadows in Photoshop. It only appears when trying to push shadows and exposure for an underexposure image att at least 100-400 ISO.

 

Tailwagger, do you have possibility to share the exact image abowe in dng-format so I can experiment and compare with my amount of shadow recovery? Or if not, just how the histogram locked, was it like Exposure to the left ?

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