X1D

[tom0511]

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But the X1D sells and has momentum... and the S really doesn't...

 

Obviously price has a lot to do with it... $19K for the S body is just too ridiculous for words IMHO...  I very much would like to meet the marketing genius who not too long ago upped the price with $2.5K...

 

I also believe latest is gratest has even more to do with it.

On the other side I have no doubts that both cameras allow excellent IQ and are so different in use that there is a place for both systems.

[fsprow]

I have not used the S in quite a while, but I still have the files. I do not agree with the basic contention here that it is superior to the X1D Hasselblad.  I find slightly more fine detail in the X1D images with both lenses for it -- though not up to my H6D-100c.  Both cameras can take outstanding images -- I just find the X1D easier to use and it seems to produce better colors, especially gradations.

 

By the way, Lightroom works very well with any Hasselblad images, you just don't get the lens corrections in Hasselblad's Phocus -- which is a great program and is free too!

 

Frank

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[FlashGordonPhotography]

I am a bit confused why they compare the X1D to the Nikon and Sony. I assumed that the Sony 50c sensor was installed in the Pentax 645z, Phase one digital backs and Hasselblad H. It's a known sensor, even old in 2017.

 

My friend bought the X1D and uses it alongside his Pentax. He does not see serious differences between the two. I know that several users on this board had a lot of personal experience with those cameras. Maybe they will chime in?

 

The X1D lenses are better than most of the Pentax lenses, especially wide open. The older Pentax lenses have some CA and are lower in contrast. But when push comes to shove the files from either are so close as to be splitting hairs. I have moved to the X1D from the Pentax because of the size and weight as well as it being mirrorless. Other than that I could stay with the Pentax, which is a great camera, If you want an OVF. It also has IS in the wide zoom, zoom lenses, a full lens range (many are really good too) and ever lasting battery life.

 

S lenses are better, somewhat, than either the Pentax or X1D, except for the S zoom, which isn't as good as the older Pentax 45-85. However the S isn't mirrorless and is behind in many other functional ways. Leica could be to the X1D and Fuji what the SL is to Canikon. They just need a body to go with those spectacular lenses. Fuji and Hasselblad have done the marketing for them. They just need to be in the game.

 

Gordon

[Guest VVJ]

I also believe latest is gratest has even more to do with it.

On the other side I have no doubts that both cameras allow excellent IQ and are so different in use that there is a place for both systems.

 

Not to forget looks, weight and size...   The X1D looks very appealing, that being said it has the same downside as the TL2, no joystick, so either focus and recompose or changing the focus via touch screen which I passionately hate...

[tom0511]

The X1D lenses are better than most of the Pentax lenses, especially wide open. The older Pentax lenses have some CA and are lower in contrast. But when push comes to shove the files from either are so close as to be splitting hairs. I have moved to the X1D from the Pentax because of the size and weight as well as it being mirrorless. Other than that I could stay with the Pentax, which is a great camera, If you want an OVF. It also has IS in the wide zoom, zoom lenses, a full lens range (many are really good too) and ever lasting battery life.

 

S lenses are better, somewhat, than either the Pentax or X1D, except for the S zoom, which isn't as good as the older Pentax 45-85. However the S isn't mirrorless and is behind in many other functional ways. Leica could be to the X1D and Fuji what the SL is to Canikon. They just need a body to go with those spectacular lenses. Fuji and Hasselblad have done the marketing for them. They just need to be in the game.

 

Gordon

 

 

The AF of the S is pretty accurate, and the exp metering works fine.

You can adapt all kind of lenses even use AF of Hassy and Contax lenses. The lenses are big anyways, what would be the particular advantage to have an S body with EVF?

[Jon Warwick]

I have not used the S in quite a while, but I still have the files. I do not agree with the basic contention here that it is superior to the X1D Hasselblad. I find slightly more fine detail in the X1D images with both lenses for it -- though not up to my H6D-100c. Both cameras can take outstanding images -- I just find the X1D easier to use and it seems to produce better colors, especially gradations.

 

Frank

I think that is probably my conclusion too, having used both the S 007 and X1D and done prints to my maximum size of 60” off files on high end lambda printers.

 

I too found slightly more detail, and also really nice “film-like” rendering off the Hasselblad. The speed of use of the hassie was so-so, and the evf not as good as the SL, but the X1d camera weight and image quality are just a staggering combo.

 

The “camera speed” that Leica seemed really keen on for the S 007 and SL seems very strange to me, as though they’re keeping megapixels down on purpose .....just to keep speed up.

 

I get it more for the SL, but if I’m using a medium format camera that weighs 2kg with the 70mm lens, I’d prefer resolution and associated image quality for large prints - over speed - any day ......

[FlashGordonPhotography]

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The AF of the S is pretty accurate, and the exp metering works fine.

You can adapt all kind of lenses even use AF of Hassy and Contax lenses. The lenses are big anyways, what would be the particular advantage to have an S body with EVF?

 

Well.....

 

1. It'd be lighter.

2. it'd be cheaper to produce.

3. Mirrorless has many functional advantages:

        - Live exposure preview.

        - Live in EVF histogram.

        - in EVF virtual horizon.

        - review in viewfinder.

        - etc....

4. Focus any where on the sensor.

 

Think of an SL with a bigger sensor and you're close....

 

Gordon

[BernardC]

1. It'd be lighter.

2. it'd be cheaper to produce.

3. Mirrorless has many functional advantages:

        - Live exposure preview.

        - Live in EVF histogram.

        - in EVF virtual horizon.

        - review in viewfinder.

        - etc....

4. Focus any where on the sensor.

 

Gordon,

 

I think only the first two would apply exclusively to a "mirrorless S." Three and four will probably also be offered on a SLR S-008, at least on the rear screen. I would like it if Leica made all of their digital cameras compatible with the M-10/TL EVF.

[Guest VVJ]

I would like it if Leica made all of their digital cameras compatible with the M-10/TL EVF.

 

No offense but making the Visoflex available for the S would be a little bit underwhelming IMHO... If the S gets an EVF it needs to be at least as good as the SL...

[tom0511]

Well.....

 

1. It'd be lighter.

2. it'd be cheaper to produce.

3. Mirrorless has many functional advantages:

        - Live exposure preview.

        - Live in EVF histogram.

        - in EVF virtual horizon.

        - review in viewfinder.

        - etc....

4. Focus any where on the sensor.

 

Think of an SL with a bigger sensor and you're close....

 

Gordon

 

1) It might make sense for the x1d where the focus of the lenses was not speed but size and weight and bokeh. But for the S the lenses are big anyways, and a smaller body would just lead to unbalanced combo. Or they would have to bring a new line of lenses. But even the lenses for the SL are not really small. Still smaller lenses in combo with smaller body would be very welcome from my side.

2)Cheaper is allways good for us customers, agree here.

3) Yes, but there are also disadvantages, the main one IMO is that you do not see the real light and color and contrast.

4) I agree here

 

I use the SL and S and get along with both kinds of viewfinders. I still love the optical big viewfinder of the S when I get back to the S.

 

I ENJOY that Leica and Hassy are not offering the same but different solutions.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

1) It might make sense for the x1d where the focus of the lenses was not speed but size and weight and bokeh. But for the S the lenses are big anyways, and a smaller body would just lead to unbalanced combo. Or they would have to bring a new line of lenses. But even the lenses for the SL are not really small. Still smaller lenses in combo with smaller body would be very welcome from my side.

2)Cheaper is allways good for us customers, agree here.

3) Yes, but there are also disadvantages, the main one IMO is that you do not see the real light and color and contrast.

4) I agree here

 

I use the SL and S and get along with both kinds of viewfinders. I still love the optical big viewfinder of the S when I get back to the S.

 

I ENJOY that Leica and Hassy are not offering the same but different solutions.

 

Valid points. Please note I said lighter, not smaller. Either via the body or with an adaptor the body needs to keep the same flange distance to use the current lenses. It'll be the same size. And except for the grip, which I'd like deeper, I like the size of the current body.

 

You either like EVF's or not. Neither is wrong. Personally, if we have a SL like EVF then I'm all in. Plus it's the future, whether we like it or not.

 

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Gordon,

 

I think only the first two would apply exclusively to a "mirrorless S." Three and four will probably also be offered on a SLR S-008, at least on the rear screen. I would like it if Leica made all of their digital cameras compatible with the M-10/TL EVF.

 

Already available on the rear screen of the S007 and Pentax. At least the Pentax has a flip screen. The S007 live view is a PITA to use without a flip screen. And both are near impossible to use in bright light. On a bright sunny day being able to review images in the viewfinder is absolutely awesome. Except for not allowing user selectable EVF brightness the SL EVF has it nailed.

 

Plus all OVFs mean a smaller area for focusing compared to off sensor focusing.

 

One thing I really like about the M10 EVF is that it tilts. I find that really useful. But the S needs at least the resolution of the SL. The X1D is only OK. I let it off due to the smaller size. Personally I'd like to see a flippy rear screen and an EVF that's got even more resolution and magnification than the SL. They'd have the space. Make it huge.

 

Gordon

[ZHNL]

Gordan, 

 

If X1D offer flip screen and focal plane shutter to be able to adapt lens, the system will fly off the shelf. Without doing so, It will be a hard sell. The system has not complete yet, it missing WA and a good fast portrait lens. Even with those lenses, fully invest into another close system like S is not a good idea given how fast technology going right now from 35mm to MF. 

 

I believe many S user will think twice to get into the system if they know the situation here. I have no complain about S file and OVF along with their awesome glasses, but for landscape, I clearly see no reason to get S over any good 35mm system can offer in terms of resolution (pixel) and sharpness (lens). (mostly taken from f8~f22).

 

Michael

Edited October 29, 2017 by ZHNL

[Jeff S]

 

If X1D offer flip screen and focal plane shutter to be able to adapt lens, the system will fly off the shelf.

And joystick for movable focus, fewer bugs, lower price and more lenses.... maybe.

 

Jeff

[lx1713]

A mirrorless S does not even have to be limited in design. As Gordon said, a mirrorless S going to be cheaper, lighter to build and it's the likely future for medium format.

 

Leica being small can build niche MF mirrorless cameras to a reasonable profit at smaller quantities than anyone else. Monochrom, extreme sports rugged cameras, technical camera (like the Sinar S35), cine cameras, etc. I would definitely get a mirrorless S with a great EVF and a range of small non-AF mechanical  "S" lenses similar to the M lenses ( I don't really have the need for AF for medium format work personally but I will be wrong when my client tells it to my face).

 

Even a new range of lenses just for a mirrorless S will not prevent it from using the current S lenses, it's just an extension tube away. The thought of a relatively affordable set of non-AF "S" lenses for the S format from 25mm f4.5, 35mm f4.5, 45mm f4.5, 70mm f4 is quite delicious particularly if they priced and sized it like their 21SEM f3.4. A non-AF mechanical "S" lens will probably need to be S mount and have a electronic aperture.

 

But I do realise that it's sort of hard to get Leica users to buy into the idea of slow lenses with aperture f4.0 or 4.5 It's so so summaron like 

Edited October 29, 2017 by lx1713

[FlashGordonPhotography]

And joystick for movable focus, fewer bugs, lower price and more lenses.... maybe.

 

Jeff

 

Hasselblad introduced a touch screen joystick to the X1D in the last firmware update. Same as the Olympus implementation. It works exceptionally well.

 

I've just spent two weeks away with the X1D and had no issues with buggy firmware. More lenses is a given though. Plus I want the AF for the HC lenses.

 

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Gordan, 

 

If X1D offer flip screen and focal plane shutter to be able to adapt lens, the system will fly off the shelf. Without doing so, It will be a hard sell. The system has not complete yet, it missing WA and a good fast portrait lens. Even with those lenses, fully invest into another close system like S is not a good idea given how fast technology going right now from 35mm to MF. 

 

I believe many S user will think twice to get into the system if they know the situation here. I have no complain about S file and OVF along with their awesome glasses, but for landscape, I clearly see no reason to get S over any good 35mm system can offer in terms of resolution (pixel) and sharpness (lens). (mostly taken from f8~f22).

 

Michael

 

HC lenses adapt easily. With AF to come in a future update. I have a few and they work well but are obviously larger (S sized). There's an electronic shutter now but it's got a slow read out so is somewhat limited.

 

When you talk about those missing lenses, which is true, I am reminded that the SL system is also missing them and it's been out a lot longer than the X1D.

 

As someone who owns and uses the A7R2 I cannot agree that any 35mm system matches this sensor or even the S. I know the "numbers" say they're close but I've done enough side by side testing to know numbers aren't everything.

 

Gordon

[Jeff S]

Hasselblad introduced a touch screen joystick to the X1D in the last firmware update. Same as the Olympus implementation. It works exceptionally well.

 

I've just spent two weeks away with the X1D and had no issues with buggy firmware. More lenses is a given though. Plus I want the AF for the HC lenses.

 

Gordon

A joystick (or small button) is for those who want to use the VF and avoid the touch screen. Apples and oranges, even if that method works well for you.

 

And unfortunately I can cite many reviews from those with no axe to grind citing buggy operation. More people like you need to get the word out, I guess, cause the picture being painted isn't as rosy.

 

One of many examples... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LJSRKsj31bE

 

Jeff

Edited October 29, 2017 by Jeff S

[Guest VVJ]

Hasselblad introduced a touch screen joystick to the X1D in the last firmware update. Same as the Olympus implementation. It works exceptionally well.

 

Is this any different from Touch AF on the TL2?

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[Guest VVJ]

HC lenses adapt easily. With AF to come in a future update.

 

I still have 7 Hasselblad HC lenses (35, 80, 100, 120, 150, 210 and 50-110).  I guess I will hold on to them a bit longer... Hasselblad HC glass is easily found used and not that expensive...