marknorton Posted June 29, 2007 Share #21 Posted June 29, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I seriously doubt that M8 will ever have a silent mode. It is not a shutter release switch or firmware function. The rewinding of the shutter is tied to the closing of the shutter blades and can not be stopped. To test this set the camera to 1/2 or 1 second and or B and take the lens off. Hit the shutter button and watch the shutter open, then watch it close. As soon as it closes it rewinds. It is a function of the closing of the shutter blades that triggers the rewinding of it. The only way to get it to not rewind at the close of the blades is to take out whatever switch/trigger is built into it that actuates the rewinding. This can only be done with a new, replacement shutter that has that feature and a new shutter release switch to actuate that feature. Not going to happen with the M8. Maybe the M9 but not the M8. Ed, I think you'll find it's much more sophisticated than you give it credit for. I have not micro-analysed the circuitry but I did show the shutter controller circuit board in my Anatomy thread. There are three physical sensors - the two slot sensors which are used to detect motion of the shutter wind and the position of the shutter lock which is activated at the end of the winding cycle. There's also a contact inside the shutter itself which will give feedback on the state of the shutter, possibly when the shutter is fully open for flash operation. There are three solenoids - one in the shutter lock to release it (which is the new click you hear as a distinct event in the release cycle) and two solenoids in the shutter itself which release the first and second curtains. There is also significant circuitry to do with generating the required power supplies to run the shutter solenoids and the motor. You can't achieve accurate shutter timing if the solenoid release time is going to vary with battery voltage, so the solenoids will be run from a stabilised power supply which maintains a constant voltage as the battery voltage declines from a fully charged voltage of 4.2v to a fully discharged voltage of 3.55v. Similarly, the voltage to run the motor will be controlled to ensure consistent shutter cocking action as the battery discharges. The whole process will be controlled by firmware, both to release the shutter, co-ordinate flash firing and to cock the shutter. In particular, the firmware will be monitoring for a jammed shutter and will switch the motor off if the expected motion, monitored from the sensors and motor power consumption is outside expected limits. My guess is that it will be relatively straight-forward to delay the cocking of the shutter until you lift off the shutter release. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 29, 2007 Posted June 29, 2007 Hi marknorton, Take a look here Next Firmware? Silent Mode?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Philippe D. Posted June 29, 2007 Share #22 Posted June 29, 2007 My guess is that it will be relatively straight-forward to delay the cocking of the shutter until you lift off the shutter release.Let's hope so. That would be the least. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gesper Posted June 29, 2007 Share #23 Posted June 29, 2007 Is there any reason in the next version of the M? they can't just put an M7 shutter in it? In a rangefinder, it would seem a shutter is a shutter, regardless of digital or film. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted June 29, 2007 Share #24 Posted June 29, 2007 The M7 shutter is ancient, slow, expensive and big. 1/50 shutter sync? 1/250 in the M8. 1/1000 in the M7 (1/700 if you are lucky)? 1/8000 in the M8. Most of the space inside an M7 which is not taken up by the film canister and take-up spool is taken up by the shutter. The M8 shutter is much more compact, comes in from Copal ready to install, which likely played a role in keeping the cost - and the size - of the M8 down. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted June 29, 2007 Share #25 Posted June 29, 2007 Thanks Mark. Lets hope you are correct and this can be controlled by software. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
butchhul Posted June 29, 2007 Share #26 Posted June 29, 2007 Guy: A quieter release would be nice, but the ability to make choices concerning non-leica lens would be extremely useful. Any possibilities on this front? Self coding is workable, but it would be very nice to have more control over the coding options. Butchhul Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted June 29, 2007 Share #27 Posted June 29, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) They know all about the desire to have the menu option. We just have to wait to see what they finally do. But it was talked about , i can at least say that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted June 29, 2007 Share #28 Posted June 29, 2007 They know all about the desire to have the menu option. We just have to wait to see what they finally do. But it was talked about , i can at least say that. Guy, I understand that you not want to break any confidences but have you feel for the possible timing of the next firmware release that you could pass on to us? Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted June 29, 2007 Share #29 Posted June 29, 2007 All i got was very soon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted June 30, 2007 Share #30 Posted June 30, 2007 I would'nt hold my breath for a silent mode in the next firmware. Better AWB ? SDHC ? probably. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted June 30, 2007 Share #31 Posted June 30, 2007 Pascal, I agree with you, it's more important that they get the existing features in the camera working properly than pile in with new ones. Once the AWB is working as well as one could reasonably expect, once the zebra patterning and wild scrolling have gone, one (dare I say it?) there'so ghosting from light sources at the edge of the frame, once the JPEGs are improved, then might be the time to add new stuff. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuss Posted June 30, 2007 Share #32 Posted June 30, 2007 hi all, I'm new to the forum and to the M8. Impressive camera. What I'd like in the new firmware (beside what have been already said) is the ability to see the selected shutter time in the viewfinder, _even_ in manual mode. I mean, ok, in A mode all you have is those numbers. In manual mode we may have _both_ numbers _and_ arrows/dot (to understand at first glance which mode we are using). I'd find it usefull when composing, not to have to look on the top of the camera to check if the selected time is OK for handholding. Wouldn't you like such a thing? I also think this will be quite easy to implement, maybe they can add a menu item for choosing between showing it or not, so to please everyone out there (I'm sure many will not like this solution, I respect their opinion, of course!) Cheers, cuss. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted June 30, 2007 Share #33 Posted June 30, 2007 This shutter noise hangup is for me a total non-issue. What are you complaining about? You have no mirror flapping, no stop-down rattling. I could sidle up to people, put an SLR (admittedly, not a Nikon) right behind their ear and fire away, and they would not notice a thing. The M8 is quieter than that. Your own worthy self is a good deal more conspicuous than either your camera or the noise of it. Don't make a spectacle of yourself and the M8 will just tag along. No, what I want is exposure bracketing, with increments definable by menu. That should be a good deal more useful, because it would be faster than the do-it-yourself kind. It would of course need a lever position. So delete that useless 'c' setting and give us 'b' for bracketing instead. The old man from the Age of Cut Film Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted June 30, 2007 Share #34 Posted June 30, 2007 Lars, maybe people are harder of hearing where you live, but I have recently had two situations where I was trying to take people pictures silently, and they heard me, and turned around and looked at me. I would love for the camera to be as silent as my M6. That is probably my #1 wish at this point, after stability. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted June 30, 2007 Author Share #35 Posted June 30, 2007 Well - you good people were busy while I was away. MARK - many thanks for your clarification - I feel a bit more cheerful... LARS - I have two memories: - Working with an M7 I was able to sit in the front row of the Purcell Room at the South Bank and take the first photo below without disturbing the people sitting next to me or the performers. - Working with M8 back stage at the Tron Theatre in Glasgow last week, I couldn't shoot during quiet passages, and felt very circumspect throughout. After the shoot I checked with the pianist. He told me he could hear the whirr. It wasn't a problem for him, but he could hear it - and he said whirr, not click. He knows nothing about cameras... I really want to be able to release the shutter and then put it under my jacket to re-cock... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/27796-next-firmware-silent-mode/?do=findComment&comment=294128'>More sharing options...
Philippe D. Posted June 30, 2007 Share #36 Posted June 30, 2007 I would love for the camera to be as silent as my M6. That is probably my #1 wish at this point, after stability.+1 Shooting on stage in a movie studio is as tiresome as with a mirror reflex. And the director, furious, show you immediately the exit door. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted June 30, 2007 Share #37 Posted June 30, 2007 One major advantage of the Sony R1 I had, was that you could put it in totally silent mode, turn the LCD screen on the top, face up and with the remote release in your pocket, you could taken photos in situations were photography was either banned or frowned on - very sneaky. Just about as good as when I used to use a Minox C with a right angle finder - now that was a really silent mechanical camera - makes an M6 sound like a ton of falling bricks and you could reload, with a bit of practice, single handed. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted June 30, 2007 Share #38 Posted June 30, 2007 I have recorded the sounds of my M6 and M8 at 1, 2 and 3m, as a comparison. The Leica M6 is not silent, but I would say that the M8 is about twice as "disturbing", as a purely subjective and personal description. It was recorded by my iSight camera, as a Quicktime movie without image, so you will need Quicktime. The file is about 790KB. Please don't download it too often The quality is not so great, but it should be possible to compare. http://throughthelensdarkly.com/blog/files/m_sounds.mov The sequence is 1m: M6, M8. 2m: M6, M8. 3m: M6, M8. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted June 30, 2007 Share #39 Posted June 30, 2007 Pascal, I agree with you, it's more important that they get the existing features in the camera working properly than pile in with new ones. Once the AWB is working as well as one could reasonably expect, once the zebra patterning and wild scrolling have gone, one (dare I say it?) there'so ghosting from light sources at the edge of the frame, once the JPEGs are improved, then might be the time to add new stuff. I tend to agree with with you here, there are fixes that need to be done first and maybe a few optional easy things. it's a priority list that they will follow. The last list that we sent was quite large so we will have to see what was done. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted June 30, 2007 Author Share #40 Posted June 30, 2007 The Leica M6 is not silent, but I would say that the M8 is about twice as "disturbing", as a purely subjective and personal description. Carsten - I did something similar with M6 TTL / M7 / M8. M8 shutter noise is comparable to M6 (M7 seems quietest). It's the re-cock that's the disturbing element... Leica Shutter Sound I tend to agree with with you here, there are fixes that need to be done first and maybe a few optional easy things. it's a priority list that they will follow. The last list that we sent was quite large so we will have to see what was done. Guy - agree that reliability is centrally important - but useability is also hugely significant for a lot of users.... Let's hope it's not an EITHER / OR situation on the firmware ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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