schattenundlicht Posted October 12, 2017 Share #1 Posted October 12, 2017 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Alhough I am aware of a number of threads with similiar questions, I would still be very grateful for input from the knowledgeable members of this forum on a specific unnumbered lens. It comes with a 1009xx S/N Leica II, making the body, to my knowledge, one of the last from the first production year, 1932. The body carries the marks of an early II (e.g. "lavatory seat" on top plate). The lens, however, is unnumbered, carries the "0" and the 7'o clock infinity stop. In previous discussions, there have been several different propositions for the genesis of unnumbered Elmars. I would like to ask: (1) Is anybody aware of regular production of 50 mm Elmars without S/N in 1932? Or can we reasonably exclude that this lens was originally matched to a 1932 II? (2) If there are no regular unnumbered "late" Elmars w/o S/N, then what is, in your opinion, the most propable provenance of this lens: a- Produced for an early Leica I and modified for a Standard or II/III in 1932 or later (because of the 7'o clock configuration) b- Originally bundled with a Focomat c- Repaired with unnumbered spare parts d- other Thanks for sharing your expertise! Mathias Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited October 12, 2017 by schattenundlicht Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/277747-yet-another-elmar-without-sn/?do=findComment&comment=3374717'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 12, 2017 Posted October 12, 2017 Hi schattenundlicht, Take a look here Yet another Elmar without S/N. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
willeica Posted October 12, 2017 Share #2 Posted October 12, 2017 Probably (a) . I have two just like this. It was a common procedure during that time as the upgrade programme was in full swing. Your camera is not an upgrade, of course. William 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 12, 2017 Share #3 Posted October 12, 2017 It's a wild guess... :let's say that a) is quite reasonable (was a factory provided service) , c) possible (highly damaged lens unit... a crack of front lens... Leitz CS replaces with an unnumbered spare the whole optical cell)... and as d)... I seem to remember that someone (maybe Marco Cavina) displayed a 7 o'clock / standard / coupled and unnumbered... but of course it could be the result of a past story like a) or c)... anyway, I think that as of 1932 Leitz did number all their lenses. is a tricky hipotesis on which I cannot say much, because am not well informed about the history of enlarger lenses... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted October 12, 2017 Share #4 Posted October 12, 2017 I have found some un numbered on Leitz projectors 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted October 12, 2017 Share #5 Posted October 12, 2017 Does the "F=50mm" tell us something? I don't know when the change from 50mm to 5cm happened. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
schattenundlicht Posted October 13, 2017 Author Share #6 Posted October 13, 2017 Does the "F=50mm" tell us something? I don't know when the change from 50mm to 5cm happened. I vaguely remember that there was a thread covering the mm -> cm -> mm timeline of focal length designations, but I have currently been unable to retrieve it via forum search. However, I seem to remember that the switch from mm to cm took place later. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
schattenundlicht Posted October 13, 2017 Author Share #7 Posted October 13, 2017 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) I am puzzled by a seeming discrepancy: - The wiki list of lens serial numbers starts with 100.000 in 1931. - In the section dealing with the Elmar 50 mm, Laney states (on page 226 of the 2nd edition) that "1933: Serial numbers engraved on lenses from henceforth". He does not make clear whether this is an Elmar specific cutoff, however his lens S/N table does not give any numbers at all before 1933. A. Could this point to previous lenses being marked with S/N internally only? B. Is anybody aware of an Elmar with an externally engraved S/N below 156001 (1933)? C. Unfortunately, I do not own a copy of the works of Rogliatti, Bower, Thiele or Sartorius. Could someone with access to these works detail what (if any) they say about this issue? Thanks again Mathias Edited October 13, 2017 by schattenundlicht Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted October 13, 2017 Share #8 Posted October 13, 2017 The first Elmars were attached to a specific camera with its own SN. Therefore, they did not need SNs. I suspect that your lens comes from this source. I have two such lenses, one on a I Model A which had been converted to a Standard. The second one came as part of a job lot and is in near mint condition. Interestingly, they are both quite short (in length) lenses, shorter than the usual Elmar. Early non standardised Elmars would have a 3 digit number on the mount to match the SN of the non standardised I Model C on which they were mounted. Some members who like opening lenses can report on numbers scratched inside Elmars. According to Thiele the first SN on a 50mm Elmar is 92201 from 1932. Also according to Thiele the first LTM (not for Nagel, Welta etc) Elmar described as a 5cm seems to have had the SN 222001 from 1934. As was often the case with Leica, there may have been some overlap. Looking for absolute cut off dates etc with vintage Leicas is largely a waste of time. William 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
schattenundlicht Posted October 13, 2017 Author Share #9 Posted October 13, 2017 (edited) A quick survey of images on the well known auction sites / vintage dealers gave a partial answer to my own question [...] B. Is anybody aware of an Elmar with an externally engraved S/N below 156001 (1933)? [...] I found images of 50 mm Elmars with engraved S/N going down as far as 120xxx. Edited October 13, 2017 by schattenundlicht Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
schattenundlicht Posted October 13, 2017 Author Share #10 Posted October 13, 2017 [...] Looking for absolute cut off dates etc with vintage Leicas is largely a waste of time. [...] William You are right, of course! But then, isn't collecting in general? ;-) Kind regards Mathias Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted October 13, 2017 Share #11 Posted October 13, 2017 a bit of history before answering directly your questions... Elmars for IA were fix mounted, they did not have SN, were calibrated for this particular camera. They did not have infinity lock as well, hockey stick was locking lens at infinity. With introduction of interchangeable mount for for IC (May 1930, with camera 37280) lenses were matched to camery body and recevied a number engraved on the mount, later on DOF (from camera SN around 41300). At the begining full camera SN (5 digit) was engravced, later the last 3 digits only. These cameras and lenses are named non-standartized. Non-std cameras were produced until May 1931, SN below 55404. All cameras pwith interchageable mount produced from May 1931 are so called "standartized" - distance between mounting flange on the camera and film plane ws set to 28,8mm. Standartized lenses received small "0" on DOF (above the screw). Elmar is 11 oclock, no infinity lock, no SN engraved on the black ring. Fix mount and interchageable were produced in parallel until introduction of Leica II. These lenses were not coupled with rangefinder. Interchangeable lenses From February 1932 (introduction of model II) lenses were coupled with rangefinder. Some amount of early lenses have no SN, no infinity lock, all are 11 oclock. After short time infinity lock has been introduced, sa called pin release. Mount was still 11 oclock. This is as well about the time when Leitz started to assign own SN to the lenses, on Elmars engraved on black ring. Many authors believe SN started with 92xxx, however I am conviced that numbering started with lower SN, around 73xxx (I have one 73xxx, and have seen another one). With introduction of Model III (1933) mount was changed to 7oclock, pin is a sort of bell, like on your lens. This was was kept until end of production mid fifties. Now back to your questions: - no, lens is converted one and I am pretty sure it is not the one original with camera -production year is hard to say as there is no SN, and even with SN known it would be hard to determine exact date. Thiele is listing batches of SN as they were assigned, real production could have been later Should you have further questions pls contact me. And coming back to swith 50mm - 5cm. This happened around 1932/33, around SN 163xxx. Finaly, as mentioned few times above - there are exceptions as a result of repairs, conversions. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted October 13, 2017 Share #12 Posted October 13, 2017 (edited) ... B. Is anybody aware of an Elmar with an externally engraved S/N below 156001 (1933)? ... My oldest 5cm Elmar is 143363, a 5cm Hektor has 123671. Both with F=5cm, not mm. The Hektor has infinity without lock at 11 o' clock. Thiele's list is very unprecise for the earliest lenses and doesn't help. Edited October 13, 2017 by UliWer 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
schattenundlicht Posted October 13, 2017 Author Share #13 Posted October 13, 2017 (edited) Thank you everybody for your helpful answers! In summary I will resign myself to not owning a matching pair this time (worked out better with my IIIf and M3). However, the early 30ies must have been a very dynamic time for Leica and their owners, not to speak of the ensuing decades. Thus I will adopt the mindset, that the somewhat clouded provenance of the lens adds a little mistery to the whole combo ;-) I cannot await putting the first roll of film through and see how the lens and camera actually perform. However, currently weather and light conditions are rather dreary here... Kind regards Mathias Edited October 13, 2017 by schattenundlicht Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted October 13, 2017 Share #14 Posted October 13, 2017 My oldest numbered Elmar : 93118 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/277747-yet-another-elmar-without-sn/?do=findComment&comment=3375058'>More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 13, 2017 Share #15 Posted October 13, 2017 ... B. Is anybody aware of an Elmar with an externally engraved S/N below 156001 (1933)? ... Mathias There are many Elmars under 100.000 (I took my "5 digits" this year... 95.582 ) , but I think they are all 50mm and 11 o'clock... the particularity of yours is the combination of 7 o'clock - 50mm - no number... which makes HIGHLY probable some kind of rework : I say HIGHLY probable and not SURE because , as pointed above, lot of exceptions exist on Elmars..., remember, Leitz factory was running after the big success of an excellent product... not thinking that their day to day job (outputting items) would be one day scanned by philologists... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
schattenundlicht Posted October 13, 2017 Author Share #16 Posted October 13, 2017 [...] .. not thinking that their day to day job (outputting items) would be one day scanned by philologists... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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