90 apo vs Otus 85mm... buyers remorse

[farnz]

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You're right. I'm just baffled by threads comparing chalk with cheese .

 

I prefer the taste of cheese but cheese is less effective on my blackboard where it doesn't last as long as chalk.  CheeseRumours says that Cheese2 will remedy this and will be ambidextrous as well.

 

Pete.

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[pgk]

I prefer the taste of cheese  .....

 

Really? Have you done a full evaluation with figures to back up your observations?

[LocalHero1953]

Really? Have you done a full evaluation with figures to back up your observations?

It's obvious from the MTF (Melted on Toast Factor) graphs. It's also noticeable that sharper cheeses like Wensleydale and Stilton have stronger microcontrast, while an older soft Brie de Meaux*, known for its smooth tonal transitions, can flare excessively - off the edge of the toast sometimes.

 

* I haven't tried this for portraits, but it should work.

Edited October 7, 2017 by LocalHero1953

[farnz]

Really? Have you done a full evaluation with figures to back up your observations?

 

Of course, Paul.  Cheese rates 4M and chalk rates U.

 

Pete.

 

4M = Mm-mm.

U = Ugh!

[pgk]

I DO worry sometimes ...... .

[mls1483]

At infinity sharpness of the APO Summicron 90mm is already good wide open and excellent when stopped down (it easily outresolves the sensor). Sharpness is also quite consistent across the field. For close distances the otus is superior because the APO Summicron lacks a floating lens element (FLE). Micro contrast of the otus is higher.

 

Bokeh of the APO Summicron is sometimes a little bit busy, but overall very gentle and pleasing (e.g. gradual transfer from high to low contrast).

 

Leica M lenses are not always otpically superior to their DSLR counterparts, but they combine high performance with small size and low weight. I would never ever carry around an Otus 28mm, Otus 55mm and Otus 85mm (plus DSLR) for a whole day. However, with Leica M this setup is no problem at all: Summilux 28mm, Summilux 50mm, APO Summicron 90mm (with Summicron 28mm and APO-Summicron 50mm it would be even lighter and fits in a small bag). The weight and size kept me so far from switching to the SL, although I am very impressed by the view finder of the SL.

 

Having said this, the APO Summicron serves all my needs: It delivers very sharp and pleasing pictures. It is easy to handle. It gave me many keepers!  

[T*Sonnar]

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I'll just leave this here:

 

http://camerasize.com/compact/#702.281,682.431,ha,t

[tobey bilek]

90 APO is an old design and in need of update with floating elements.

 

Money stays in the bank until then

[onasj]

I’m not sure how the 90 APO became so maligned on this forum. I think it’s outstanding (at least my copy, purchased new in 2017), with very little CA and outstanding sharpness. This photo is a 100% crop of an angled focus calibration tester and was taken at the minimal focusing distance and wide open at f/2. The degree of APO correction approaches that of the 50 APO, and is better than the majority of the other Leica, Nikon, Zeiss Otus, and Sigma Art lenses I’ve owned.

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[onasj]

And one more 100% crop if the 90 APO, of an intricately carved vase from Marvin Blackmore, at minimum focusing distance, handheld, and wide open. The banding you see is actually ridges in the carving. The space between carved lines is substantially less than 1 mm. Again, this is about as sharp as I’ve seen seen, almost as sharp as the world-class Sigma 85/1.4 Art, which feels about 10x larger and heavier.

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[lct]

I’m not sure how the 90 APO became so maligned on this forum. [...]

 

Neither am i. Not the sharpest 90 on closeups but still perfectly usable there.

Here at f/2: http://tinyurl.com/yagery38 (7MB file)

People complaining about the softness of this lens have no experience with it or need some lens or RF calibration.

Given the focusing issues i've had with most of my FLE lenses i would not be interested in a 90/2 FLE personally. YMMV.

[farnz]

I agree, LCT, I had no problem with my 90 APO-Summillux asph wide open, close up and would still have it and be happily using it if it hadn't suffered from element separation.

 

Pete.

[lct]

I agree, LCT, I had no problem with my 90 APO-Summillux asph wide open, close up [...]

 

Even at f/1.4?

[farnz]

Even at f/1.4?

 

Agh, got by spell checker.   f/1.4 was more difficult and needed a large spanner to turn the aperture ring past f/2.

 

Pete.

[LocalHero1953]

Another fan of the Apo-Summicron 90 here - its output is limited solely by the user IMO. 

 

I sold it because for portraits now I mainly use the even worse Vario-Elmar 24-90SL, and because next year I may acquire the Summicron-SL 90, which I already know will be total cr4p. I don't know why I stick with Leica.......

[chris_tribble]

I remember many years ago one of the Leica designers saying how easy it was to design a good lens if there was no size or weight limit. I never thought any monster lenses would be saleable, so have been quite surprised by their arrival on the market. I certainly wouldn't consider one as a tool I would use. My 90 f2 is so big and heavy most of the time I use my 90 f4 macro

+1 for this.  It's light, easy to focus and, IMHO renders really beautifully.  I'm a recent convert and have the version 2 of this lens with the macro adapter.  Paired with the M10 it's such a useful tool - great for portraiture, but also the flexibility of really useful macro. What's not to like.

[MarkP]

+1 for this.  It's light, easy to focus and, IMHO renders really beautifully.  I'm a recent convert and have the version 2 of this lens with the macro adapter.  Paired with the M10 it's such a useful tool - great for portraiture, but also the flexibility of really useful macro. What's not to like.

 

+2 The Macro-Elmar is a fabulous little lens. It's light weight to some extent offfsets its max aperture of f4.0 because it's so easy to hand-hold. Although I have many fast lenses I have had no interest in a foster 90mm lens.

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/175185-in-praise-of-the-4090-macro-elmar-m/

[lct]

I like much the Macro-Elmar 90/4 as well but it is only an f/4 lens... The Summarit 90/2.4 is an excellent compromise but it is significantly more bulky than the latter. I still miss a 90/2.8 as small and light as the "thin" Tele-Elmarit with less flare than the latter. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by lct

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[Ronazle]

My 90 APO Cron is super; when it fails the fault is usually traceable to the old guy holding it. It would be one of the last I would let go. Regards, Ron

[Dmitry_M]

On 10/4/2017 at 11:46 PM, Jared said:

What are you worried you won’t be able to get with the Summicron that you could get with the Otus? A narrower depth of field? Better out of focus rendition? Better colors? Sharper? What is the specific concern with the Summicron?

 

We all seem to obsess—me included—over getting the best/most/ultra/uber version of whatever, but nine times out of ten it’s splitting hairs that won’t affect the final print at all, and certainly has little to do with the quality of a photograph. It’s just hard going around thinking we could have had something “better” for the same money.

 

Here is what I would recommend. Assume, for sake of argument, that the Otus would be a tad bit sharper, and that the difference would be visible with a large print. Which do you value more? The extra pop in the image, or the smaller/lighter handling of the Summicron? If the answer is the extra pop, I’d return the Summicron now and either get the Otus or wait to see what the native SL 90 is like. Then you could have AF, too.

 

As things stand you will always wonder, “what if...”. That’s not a good place to be. Personally, I don’t even know if the Otus has an edge in sharpness, but I would expect it to. Zeiss disn’t Have to compromise on weight, number of elements, etc..

Otus 85 renders like true medium format.  There is no comparison to APO 90.  APO 90 is too harsh in my opinion.  They are both extremely sharp, but Otus has unique transition to out of focus, that is barely noticeable.  It is the best lens for one eye in focus technique.  However it is a beast - at 1.2 kg it is only suitable for tripod work.  There is also Leica summilux-90 1.5.  For only 200 extra grams in weight and 1/4 of the price tag Otus rivals that Leica.