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Sensor replacement and market impact


Deliberate1

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Rather a coincidence today, but in a charity shop I came across a Kodak DC3200 camera literally in a bin full of cameras. At £3 I was happy to buy it to put in the Gallery 'history' cabinet alongside my other obsolete photographic display items. However I thought it worth trying so I put 4 x AA batteries in and a CF card and it powered up and yes, worked fine. OK so its only 1MPixel but given that it dates form 2000-2002ish and it still works I'm impressed. The real advantage is with the AA batteries it uses as they've been around for a long time and hopefully will be for a long time to come. If a manufacturer could come up with a power-pack replacement which used readily available batteries like AAs to power loads of cameras via an adapter then many might have an extended life beyond their bespoke battery life.

 

This actually happens for those of us who still use vintage cameras, many old batteries are no longer available but adapters that take modern batteries are available or we just make our own. Some people are starting to repair Li-Ion batteries by disassembling them and replacing the dead cells with modern ones.

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As it happens, the charity shop was in Rhos-on-Sea .....

 

Lithium batteries are problematic though and I know at least one camera repairer who won't keep used Lithium cells anywhere other than in a metal container (which is not in the house) due to their perceived potential instability.

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As it happens, the charity shop was in Rhos-on-Sea .....

 

Lithium batteries are problematic though and I know at least one camera repairer who won't keep used Lithium cells anywhere other than in a metal container (which is not in the house) due to their perceived potential instability.

 

Rhos-on-Sea, where I went to school.....

 

Lithium batteries can be a huge problem, Samsung proved that beyond a doubt. 

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This actually happens for those of us who still use vintage cameras, many old batteries are no longer available but adapters that take modern batteries are available or we just make our own. Some people are starting to repair Li-Ion batteries by disassembling them and replacing the dead cells with modern ones.

 

Quite a few battery repair shops do so - especially for laptops, but they will do camera batteries as well.

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No argument from me, mate. Very sensible perspective.

That said, have you seen how much beat up lunch boxes from the 60's go for now? 

 

Beat up lunch boxes!  Of course they are valuable; everyone carried one, more or less. and they are still (thermos possibly excepted) fully functional and more than equal to the current product in performance.  Regards, Ron

 

PS    Along the above lines it would not surprise me if a fully functional (certainly not impossible) M9 brought a premium price in the far future. Battery availability will probably be the determinant.

Edited by Ronazle
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  • 2 years later...

I use film M's and lenses and it is sad that I find myself very reluctant to get a digital M. Not only are the issues with the M8 and 9 annoying for their owners but these issues deter people from buying an M. I would not hesitate to buy an 18MP M9 if I could see it as a camera that one could expect to use for another troublefree 5 years or more. Instead one can expect to buy a lot of problems. So I use my M lenses on Fuji Xpro's, sad.

Call me frugal but for the price of even a secondhand M I like to expect years of trouble free use. Even if users decide to bin their Leica because of digital rot after a couple of years, the factory should make them to last. That is why it is a Leica.

Unfortunately Leica themselves appear to underline the 'disposability' of their cameras by ending the free replacement of te affected M9 sensors. If you stand behind your product and you messed up, you should replace the sub standard parts, even after 10 years. Funny that the beautiful 60 year old rangefinder design in an M9 will still work after 30 years while the camera is useless. Maybe Leica should make modular M cameras, where the user can replace the sensor and engine module.

And maybe this is the best they can do to survive in a market where cameras became expensive disposables. I am happy I decided to keep my film Rolleiflexes, Hasselblads, etc. 

 

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16 minutes ago, alwinvrm said:

Instead one can expect to buy a lot of problems.

How so? I've been using mine for coming up to 11 years, no issues except the well-known sensor corrosion.

The only point I agree with you on is that Leica should have recalled all potentially affected bodies or made the replacement program free for much longer. Apart from that your post must be the most depressing first post ever. What is sad is to believe all the internet myths and legends without having the experience of using one of these bodies. There are still plenty of happy M8 & M9 users, enjoying their cameras every single day, while you use your M lenses on your Xpro. 

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@ianman

@jaapv

I happily use M lenses on M film bodies. I had no problems with M film cameras (M2, M4p, M6), just an occasional CLA. They lived in very hot and dusty climates.

Arguably the Fuji X Pro does have a very nice viewfinder to use with most Leica lenses.

Probably I just live in the past when cameras lasted forever and designs were maybe simpler and time tested.

I didn't mean to be sad or negative. Actually I was just looking on ebay and the local craig's list for a used M, but weighing prices vs possible repair expenses held me back. That, I experienced as sad. I may be totally wrong and perhaps all cameras I saw were perfect and would have lasted me for decades. And that is where internet talk may indeed be a venom or a blessing.

 

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12 hours ago, alwinvrm said:

I use film M's and lenses and it is sad that I find myself very reluctant to get a digital M. Not only are the issues with the M8 and 9 annoying for their owners but these issues deter people from buying an M. I would not hesitate to buy an 18MP M9 if I could see it as a camera that one could expect to use for another troublefree 5 years or more. Instead one can expect to buy a lot of problems. So I use my M lenses on Fuji Xpro's, sad.

Call me frugal but for the price of even a secondhand M I like to expect years of trouble free use. Even if users decide to bin their Leica because of digital rot after a couple of years, the factory should make them to last. That is why it is a Leica.

Unfortunately Leica themselves appear to underline the 'disposability' of their cameras by ending the free replacement of te affected M9 sensors. If you stand behind your product and you messed up, you should replace the sub standard parts, even after 10 years. Funny that the beautiful 60 year old rangefinder design in an M9 will still work after 30 years while the camera is useless. Maybe Leica should make modular M cameras, where the user can replace the sensor and engine module.

And maybe this is the best they can do to survive in a market where cameras became expensive disposables. I am happy I decided to keep my film Rolleiflexes, Hasselblads, etc. 

 

If you google enough you will find DIY instructions for how to place FF Sony A7 sensor into film M. Current state of electronics and 3D printing allows to do it.

But I'm waiting for Leica made retrofit kit to install global shutter into film M. This will allow to use film M bodies without spending hundreds on CLA and even more hundreds on set of new curtains.   

Also, to me, "keep" and "use" are two different things. I simply can't use film M as digital M. I like to take a show up stroll with fancy film camera, but I just don't have time to process, scan and else with film. To me the result is the major point of using and having photo camera. With film I like pictures because it is simply nice on film. But if I need the content, I have better chances with digital. Yet, it is much more challenging with digital M comparing to film M. Results vs nice feel. 

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16 hours ago, alwinvrm said:

Probably I just live in the past when cameras lasted forever and designs were maybe simpler and time tested.

What makes you think that your Xpro will last any longer than a digital M?

I agree with you that mechanical cameras will last much longer, but that is the nature of things. And unfortunately the throw away culture of "I want more, more, more and I want it now" dictates the path manufacturers have to follow.

However, as I wrote above, I've been using my M9 for close to 11 years now. During that time I know others who have gone through 2, 3 or more generations of digital cameras... and who have ended up paying much more than the initial cost of the M.

BTW, I also tend to "live in the past". I also use an MP and M4-P and mainly use old design lenses.

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9 minutes ago, ianman said:

What makes you think that your Xpro will last any longer than a digital M?

I agree with you that mechanical cameras will last much longer, but that is the nature of things. And unfortunately the throw away culture of "I want more, more, more and I want it now" dictates the path manufacturers have to follow.

However, as I wrote above, I've been using my M9 for close to 11 years now. During that time I know others who have gone through 2, 3 or more generations of digital cameras... and who have ended up paying much more than the initial cost of the M.

BTW, I also tend to "live in the past". I also use an MP and M4-P and mainly use old design lenses.

The throw away culture will be curtailed for some time, I think, given the certain economic downturn. The idea of purchasing cameras with better resolution, bigger menus etc etc holds no interest for me. Looking at the adverts that arrive in my inbox I gauge the major Japanese camera companies are having a hard time based on the money off inducements or cash backs.  

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14 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

If you google enough you will find DIY instructions for how to place FF Sony A7 sensor into film M. Current state of electronics and 3D printing allows to do it.

But I'm waiting for Leica made retrofit kit to install global shutter into film M. This will allow to use film M bodies without spending hundreds on CLA and even more hundreds on set of new curtains.   

Also, to me, "keep" and "use" are two different things. I simply can't use film M as digital M. I like to take a show up stroll with fancy film camera, but I just don't have time to process, scan and else with film. To me the result is the major point of using and having photo camera. With film I like pictures because it is simply nice on film. But if I need the content, I have better chances with digital. Yet, it is much more challenging with digital M comparing to film M. Results vs nice feel. 

Thanx for these, to me, new approaches. An A7 sensor and better, an original retrofit kit sounds interesting. I am an amateur photographer, so I have the luxury of not having to deliver. Having said that, I don't like to spend hours on PP, but developing a film ( or having it done somewhere) and then scan the few ones you think you like is not very time consuming.

I think the best part of film/slide for me is the fact that you have to deliver while you take the picture, so I am more conscious of perfect exposure, etc. This intensifies the experience for me. I often still remember, settings, camera, lens, developer, film, etc. of good pictures I took 20 years ago ,

Edited by alwinvrm
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2 hours ago, ianman said:

What makes you think that your Xpro will last any longer than a digital M?

I agree with you that mechanical cameras will last much longer, but that is the nature of things. And unfortunately the throw away culture of "I want more, more, more and I want it now" dictates the path manufacturers have to follow.

However, as I wrote above, I've been using my M9 for close to 11 years now. During that time I know others who have gone through 2, 3 or more generations of digital cameras... and who have ended up paying much more than the initial cost of the M.

BTW, I also tend to "live in the past". I also use an MP and M4-P and mainly use old design lenses.

The anecdotal part is that I have / had several Fuji bodies that were reliable and some I have owned for 9 years and they still function well. Except the not so major sticky blades issue of the original X100, I am not aware of major mess ups like a corroding sensor or so. So that gives me subjective confidence in Fuji.

I would consider an M9, if I would have proof from Leica that it was retrofitted with the newer non corroding sensor. It seems there is a way to enter the firmware to find that out, but I am not sure one should trust a remote seller with this.

And yes, I love the rendering of my old Summicrons; still trying to get a nice Summicron 50mm V3.

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3 hours ago, Steve Ricoh said:

The throw away culture will be curtailed for some time, I think, given the certain economic downturn. The idea of purchasing cameras with better resolution, bigger menus etc etc holds no interest for me. Looking at the adverts that arrive in my inbox I gauge the major Japanese camera companies are having a hard time based on the money off inducements or cash backs.  

Around 20 MP is enough for most and reading your post, one would tink that it is the right time for a high quality, long term maintainable camera = Leica. I would be prepared to invest in a 20 MP camera that  has the potential to become a trusted old friend. I wonder though whether Leica can go back to its old business model of long lasting quality, since it must be less profitable than the current disposable camera model.

Edited by alwinvrm
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23 minutes ago, alwinvrm said:

I would consider an M9, if I would have proof from Leica that it was retrofitted with the newer non corroding sensor. It seems there is a way to enter the firmware to find that out, but I am not sure one should trust a remote seller with this.

You can see the ID of the sensor in the maintenance menu - I don't remember off-hand the sequence to get into the menu but if you do a search in the M9 forum you will easily find it.

But even better... you can have proof from Leica. If you are interested in buying an M9, if the seller has had the sensor changed there is a good chance (s)he will have the document provided by Leica when the new sensor was placed.

If the seller does not have this document, you can just email customer support at Leica asking if that particular body has received the sensor replacement... memtion the serial number in the email!! The will be able to tell you if and when the sensor was changed.

Edited by ianman
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The 24MP M240 is enough for me. I hate complex digital cameras with menu systems so deep that you need oxygen to survive. By comparison digital Leica cameras are simple and uncomplicated, with separate dials for shutter speed and aperture. Button pressing for iso I can live with.

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34 minutes ago, Steve Ricoh said:

The 24MP M240 is enough for me. I hate complex digital cameras with menu systems so deep that you need oxygen to survive. By comparison digital Leica cameras are simple and uncomplicated, with separate dials for shutter speed and aperture. Button pressing for iso I can live with.

Yes, agreed, I had an embarrassing moment in a studio 2 weeks ago, model watching, when it took me a century to get a borrowed high level Panasonic on max sync speed, the correct fstop, let it accept a manual lens, and get it out of some devilish silent mode combined with an electronic shutter mode that refused to make my flash trigger work.

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3 hours ago, alwinvrm said:

The anecdotal part is that I have / had several Fuji bodies that were reliable and some I have owned for 9 years and they still function well. Except the not so major sticky blades issue of the original X100, I am not aware of major mess ups like a corroding sensor or so. So that gives me subjective confidence in Fuji.

I would consider an M9, if I would have proof from Leica that it was retrofitted with the newer non corroding sensor. It seems there is a way to enter the firmware to find that out, but I am not sure one should trust a remote seller with this.

And yes, I love the rendering of my old Summicrons; still trying to get a nice Summicron 50mm V3.

I have 3 M9s all with certified new gen replaced sensors and I am happy with them. I came across from X-Pro1s because the AF missed occasionally and I shot OVF no chimping so lost a few important (to me) shots. I know my own fault but I have yet to miss focus with my M9s.

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On 6/20/2020 at 7:12 PM, Topsy said:

I have 3 M9s all with certified new gen replaced sensors and I am happy with them. I came across from X-Pro1s because the AF missed occasionally and I shot OVF no chimping so lost a few important (to me) shots. I know my own fault but I have yet to miss focus with my M9s.

Well, that is nice, you have ample supply of the camera you love. I have the XPro2 and I understand focus, etc. was improved compared with previous version, so I don't experience the problems you faced.

I see M9s for around eur 1000 with either a corroding sensor or an undocumented past. Taking into consideration that sensor replacement is 1500 euro, maybe more expensive, and courier transportation has to be added, I wonder if that is a good price. Is that still cheaper than an M240 in acceptable condition, I wonder?

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