Summicron 50mm glass issue identification

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Hello. I am a new member here and also a new Leica owner. I recently purchased a Summicron 50mm which in almost all respects appears quite nice to me. No marks, scratches, etc on either the barrel or the glass. It was advertised as Mint- but noting a small amount of haze. Looking through the lens from the back I'm hard pressed to find more than a couple specks of dust or any obvious issues.

 

However, under certain light looking through the front of the lens at F 2 I can see a ring around one of the rear elements, perhaps the back. I'm sure this is the haze as advertised. I'll be putting a roll through it this week and should see if it affects the photographs.

 

I would very much appreciate if anyone here could have a quick look and offer their informed analysis, prognosis. I've taken two photographs of the glass, attached. One doesn't exhibit the haze and the other does. Is this indeed haze? Or worse?

 

Kind regards,

 

Scott 

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[Rus]

To me the ring seems to have a more well-defined edge than what a haze patch might show. I wonder if this could be a sign of balsam separation.

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[luigi bertolotti]

Welcome to the forum !!

Can you detail which is the serial number of your Summicron ? the reason for I ask is this : the gray ring you display is surely, as you say, on some of the rear glass elements : the Summicrons 50 prior to 1968 had a 7 elements design which included a pair of coupled elements (the 5th and 6th, starting from front) : the ring you see could be caused by the special glue ("Canada Balsam")used to cement the 2 glasses together... it can happen if a small separation of the two elements has occurred. Lenses from 1968 onwards (from s/n 2.269.251) had a new 6 elements design with no cemented pairs in the back 3 elements. If so, it could be simple "dirt" and a good lab can make a good cleaning : Summicrons are well maintainable lenses and they Worth a well-made maintenance, if none has been ever done.

Edited October 3, 2017 by luigi bertolotti

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Thanks very much, Rus and Luigi, for taking a look and your thoughts. The lens is indeed the older, SN 1784930. If indeed a separation, I will be very curious what my test images show. Does the balsam separation always affect the photos? I'll have to consider returning this lens or having it repaired if that's an option. 

[Ecar]

It does indeed look like edge separation...

Since it's can only be seen at an angle, it's probably not too bad and its effect would be hardly noticeable (if at all) in the resulting pictures, even wide open.

If you really like the lens, your best option is to ask a competent technician for advice - and a cost estimate for fixing it, assuming it can be done without risk.

FWIW, I have had a few lenses show separation and my experience is that it's very much a case-by-case assessment.

If possible, I'd inform the seller and make sure you can return the lens (or get a partial refund) after having received third-party advice.

Else, I'd just return it: too much risk/trouble IMO for a 1960 lens that's not irreplaceable.

[luigi bertolotti]

My last problem with separation was into an old Elmarit 28 9-elements... a lab fixed it perfectly at a not high cost (240 Euros) : to be honest, the image quality improved VERY marginally... and maybe mostly thanks to the general cleaning made in the occasion (separation was at an edge, for half a diamter about)

[Ecar]

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My last problem with separation was into an old Elmarit 28 9-elements... a lab fixed it perfectly at a not high cost (240 Euros) : to be honest, the image quality improved VERY marginally... and maybe mostly thanks to the general cleaning made in the occasion (separation was at an edge, for half a diamter about)

 

Luigi,

You mean half a mm (or perhaps cm), right? Else it would be a pretty nasty one...

 

FWIW, my most recent (last month) experiences with separation were with a Tanar 50/2 (re-cementing performed at a very affordable cost in the context of a full CLA) and a Hektor 73/1.9 (tiny separation area away from the edge, which was not repairable without incurring the risk of destroying the lens element).

In the past, I have had repair estimates ranging roughly from 50 to 500$ to fix separation issues, depending on the lens, the nature of the problem and the technician...

Despite the fact that I have rarely seen a marked difference in IQ after having the issue repaired, I have always been wary of edge separation due to the risks of fungus ingress and development between the elements.

[SilentShutter]

I am a little more worried about the green stuff on the mechanics.

Never saw that before - could it be mold ?

 

Maybe you can post us some more pictures - using the flashlight test ?

 

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/flashlight-test.htm

[luigi bertolotti]

Luigi,

You mean half a mm (or perhaps cm), right? Else it would be a pretty nasty one...

 

 

No... I meant that the separation was along half (less, indeed) of the external diameter of the glass element(s) , to say, a "half ring" not so different from the one we see in the OP picture... similar width in the range of 1 max 2 mm...

Edited October 4, 2017 by luigi bertolotti

[Rob L]

That does not look like separation. The first photo would show separation as a gold colored shimmery appearance around the perimeter of the rear duplet (quite common on these old type II Summicrons). The haze is very minor and often will not clean up on this lens with a CLA. The 50s and 60s Summicrons more often than not have this haze. Looks like a good lens to me for it's age. That amount of haze will have no affect on your images.

[Ko.Fe.]

Lens described as next to unused. For decades. Why not to send it for CLA? It might clean out nicely. 

I had Leitz made 35mm and 28mm lenses with separation from fifties and seventies. It looked very different and it was rarely affecting pictures. Older lens with more visible separation was less affected. Almost to no issues. Go figure.

With haze like this it might have less contrast and it might looks like circular.  And only if light comes under specific angle. I used have famous for problem like this Canon 50 1.8 LTM. Entire area of one of the rear element was like on the OP's pictures. But, surprisingly, it was OK most of the time.

[Rob L]

I would CLA any old Leica lens myself if I was planning to keep it. But the haze can be stubborn. I have shot with one of these that was amazingly hazy and the photos came out just fine. I was shocked. I'm sure it would flare badly if shot into a light source, but for most uses it could not be distinguished from a perfect lens.

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Sincere thanks to all who have taken the time to look and comment. And apologies for the delay in replying. I have now taken a few more photos of the lens, attempting the flashlight technique with a cleaner lens AND torch! My main worry, as others have spotted, was what previously looked like green mold. To capture that I'm taking a photo through the front of the lens with a iPhone camera and flash. I wonder if that's some sort of flash/colour/metal artifact?

 

In new attached image shot with torch shown through the back of lens, the colour is less apparent. 

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[Molokaio]

On 10/4/2017 at 8:05 PM, luigi bertolotti said:

No... I meant that the separation was along half (less, indeed) of the external diameter of the glass element(s) , to say, a "half ring" not so different from the one we see in the OP picture... similar width in the range of 1 max 2 mm...

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but I'm interested in your esperience Luigi, I'm in Italy as well. I might have a similar issue the OP has with a 50 summicron V 

I can't PM you, if you can PM me, could you write to me the name of the technician that fixed your lens?

Grazie

[lct]

2 hours ago, Molokaio said:

I can't PM you

Try:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/messenger/compose/?to=7252

[Molokaio]

7 minutes ago, lct said:

Try:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/messenger/compose/?to=7252

Thanks @lct , but it seems since I just subscribed, this functions not available on my account yet.

On my summicron, my problem is like @luigi bertolotti 's, it's a sort of Half moon, but also has some waves. Can only be seen with a torch light ( I know I know), but I just got it and debating on what to do. It seems a very minor issue at the moment... but who knows with time.

 

[lct]

20 minutes ago, Molokaio said:

I just got it and debating on what to do [...]

You may wish to show pics of your issue here but in doubt i would not keep a lens with any optical defect personally. YMMV.

[Molokaio]

Thanks  @lct, I got it for 1.3k, 2002 lens if I'm not mistaken. Like new outside, no scratches.

The half moon stain can be seen only against a source of light. In regular day light it's pristine. 

I Will use it on my M4...

 

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Edited January 11, 2023 by Molokaio

[mmradman]

Noticed earlier post refer to low serial number lens, #1,7nn,nnn, while latest picture seem to be #3,9nn,nnn.  High serial number is early 2000s product most probably exclude balsam separation unlike lower number which is early 1960s.

Ref post #18 I think there are two things inside:- [a] bright "half moon" on the the inside are probably reflection from side walls of individual lens elements, this is typical and normal, [b] band of dirt is more concerning. As i don't have said lens can't work out is it on the outside of the last internal lens element or it is in the middle of the lens group in which case it could be potentially a problem.   Not necessarily fungus, which can be in the middle (which is clean) rather than along the edge only.  Could be some sort of volatile compound that has migrated from the inner barrel onto the glass surface to form semi-opaque circular band, resembles glue residue one sees when removing old sticker.  

Edit - Added, unless user suspect lens is spoiling images it is always bad idea shining bright light inside optical instruments, dirt & optical  anomalies are unavoidable.

Edited January 11, 2023 by mmradman

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[Molokaio]

@mmradman The band of dirt is not all around the lens. It is a half moon, it is on half the lens, not all around the whole lens regularly. this is what I am referring to. 

I let the lens reflection out of focus, because that is no concern. I left in focus only the band of dirt. That is what worries me, and it also has a wavy outline and some spots which makes me think it could be early stage of separation (??) and not haze. 

 

It seems to be the front cemented element 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Molokaio