luigi bertolotti Posted October 16, 2017 Share #81 Posted October 16, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) As a person who has been involved for years, generally speaking, on the topic of industrial costs / development costs / commercial costs / amortization of and similar... this supposed target price of 6600 US$$/Euros (equal for simplification) , makes me to speculate a little on the logic behind... of course with some basic data completely MISSING... but some starting points can be drawn, at least... - Development costs / optics : they had NOT to start from a "White sheet" : the lenses' schema already existed, probably also the detailed specs of elements' basic geometry and glasses' parameters (the well known "numbers" which identify optical glass) : little work for lens' design dept. - Development costs / mech : same as above for a good share of the lens' body : but of course it needs a complete re-engineering... on the basis of some existing (old) drawings.. : standard workcharge for mech designers... on a body that is NOT complex (a simple glass cell - 4 elements - no complications like floating elements - "normal" focus helicoid and RF coupling mechanism) - Tooling fixed costs / optics : I suppose the glass' provider (Hoya or similar) has not to develop or customize some of its standard glasses (imho this is reasonable, considering the glass of the original version), so we could conclude that the raw glass can be sourced at standard industrial prices : they have only to develop the CNC machining programs for the 4 elements and the assembly workcycle. - Tooling fixed costs / mech : probably that's a matter for the machining concern next to Leica (don't remember the name... something like Feinmaschinigwerke...) : no doubt, this is a new component that needs a brand new Manufacturing BOM / Machining cycles / Assembly work instructions etc... , it's like any new (simple) lens body to be industrialized from the scratch (surely, none of the old manufacturing cycles of the original Thambar is of help ... ... 80 years of technology improvement in manufacturing) The COST of all the above ? Hard hard to guess.... no much people involved for not a long time, but costly people on a costly organization.. and they made surely some prototype.... very roughly, I imagine something in the area of 500KEuros and would be rather sure about < 1MEuro... including the accessories (hood / cap / the filter... ) Commercial fixed costs ? (documents, box design / sourcing and related costs, mktg materials, launch...) .. another wild guess... less than the above fixed industrial costs, probably... Real manufacturing COST of one finished item ? Materials + machining + assembly + check + boxing... this isn't so difficult to imagine... by logic, it ought to be around the unit cost of, say, a Summarit 90... just to name one... (it has 1 more glass element to machine...but maybe cheaper materials) : all included - boxed ready for delivery to dealers... I suppose well under 1KEuro. ... and that's the quick reasoning on which i speculated, in a previous post, that a batch of 500 could be sufficient for a decent return.... (sorry for the boring but anyway approximate analisys... ) 7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 16, 2017 Posted October 16, 2017 Hi luigi bertolotti, Take a look here Leica Thambar-M 90mm f/2.2. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
UliWer Posted October 16, 2017 Share #82 Posted October 16, 2017 Well, it is obvious - at least for anyone reading this Forum, and some Leica people do read it - that there is a rather large market for the old or not so old stuff with a Leica badge on it bought second hand. Perhaps it is even the most important competitor for Leica‘s new production. So I can understand that they are eager to have their share in this market also: by acquiring Leica dealers who are strong on the second hand market and by producing new items in the „old style“. May be only few customers will pay the price of a „new“ Thambar, though the rewards for any single of them will be the same as for finding say ten to buy a 90mm Summarit. The money is in the market. You have to find means to attract it your way and prohibit it to go elsewhere. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted October 16, 2017 Share #83 Posted October 16, 2017 May be only few customers will pay the price of a „new“ Thambar, though the rewards for any single of them will be the same as for finding say ten to buy a 90mm Summarit. That's an interesting point. I suspect Leica have identified it might be easier to sell a single Thamber than find ten buyers for a 90 Summarit. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted October 16, 2017 Share #84 Posted October 16, 2017 Well of course they couldn‘t sell a Thambar if they would make Summarits and all the rest of their standard production. But as long as there are people who are prepared to pay premium prices on second thoughts they were silly if they didn‘t make money on them. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 16, 2017 Share #85 Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) ... and now let's speculate about the NEXT one... ... Summaron 28/5,6 - 2016, Thambar - 2017... trend towards one "nostalgy" intro an year... Alpine Elmar 105 6,3 ? Very appealing - unique style... but odd focal for the OVF... could be the "next-to-next" when some new body with some new integrated RF+EVF will exist... Hektor 73 1,9 ? Good for the OVF (75... oh well..) but style so-so... not far from Thambar, conceptually, and would cost MORE (6 elements) but ought to be priced LESS : that's no good. 50 ? fits right after a 28 and a 90.. of course all OK on the OVF side, but : - Elmar f3,5 ? too many around - needs some reengineering for safe collapsing - the Elmar-M is a too recent variation to resurge its mount... they'd need to define it as APO ASPH (and invest something on optics) to justify a high price. Let's wait 2025 - 100th - for an Anastigmat 3,5 special series... - Hektor f2,5 ? .. hum - not "legendary" - not "prestige - not "odd/rare"... even if made collapsible, too next to current Summarit on one side and recent Elmar M on another.. once again, hard to find room for playing the "high price game" - Summar f2 ? Has an historical halo (justified or not) of one of the few "poor" Leitz lenses... - so... uh... maybe XENON 1,5... ... no confusion with the ultramodern Summilux asph... heavy/"prestige" body... an f9 top closure which sounds "a touch of oddity" Long oldstyle 135s aren't sexy ("rough tubes") ... and an ultracompact Elmar 35 3,5... can't imagine how inventing the way to set an high price onto... collateral chances for Summarex 85 1,5 and, someway, Hektor 125 2,5... Edited October 16, 2017 by luigi bertolotti 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted October 16, 2017 Share #86 Posted October 16, 2017 I'm beginning to feel a tiny bit resentful because I proposed reintroducing old formula Leica lenses several years ago and was pretty well shut down. No worries. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted October 16, 2017 Share #87 Posted October 16, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) 50 ? an Anastigmat 3,5 special series. I rather like the Anastigmat on the 0-serie replica but don’t care much for the camera. An M mount version would be of interest if it didn’t cost more than the 28 Summaron-M. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 16, 2017 Share #88 Posted October 16, 2017 Pico... you have my sympathy... "nemo propheta in patria" 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 16, 2017 Share #89 Posted October 16, 2017 I want a... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/277324-leica-thambar-m-90mm-f22/?do=findComment&comment=3376888'>More sharing options...
willeica Posted October 16, 2017 Share #90 Posted October 16, 2017 ... and now let's speculate about the NEXT one... ... Summaron 28/5,6 - 2016, Thambar - 2017... trend towards one "nostalgy" intro an year... Alpine Elmar 105 6,3 ? Very appealing - unique style... but odd focal for the OVF... could be the "next-to-next" when some new body with some new integrated RF+EVF will exist... Hektor 73 1,9 ? Good for the OVF (75... oh well..) but style so-so... not far from Thambar, conceptually, and would cost MORE (6 elements) but ought to be priced LESS : that's no good. 50 ? fits right after a 28 and a 90.. of course all OK on the OVF side, but : - Elmar f3,5 ? too many around - needs some reengineering for safe collapsing - the Elmar-M is a too recent variation to resurge its mount... they'd need to define it as APO ASPH (and invest something on optics) to justify a high price. Let's wait 2025 - 100th - for an Anastigmat 3,5 special series... - Hektor f2,5 ? .. hum - not "legendary" - not "prestige - not "odd/rare"... even if made collapsible, too next to current Summarit on one side and recent Elmar M on another.. once again, hard to find room for playing the "high price game" - Summar f2 ? Has an historical halo (justified or not) of one of the few "poor" Leitz lenses... - so... uh... maybe XENON 1,5... ... no confusion with the ultramodern Summilux asph... heavy/"prestige" body... an f9 top closure which sounds "a touch of oddity" Long oldstyle 135s aren't sexy ("rough tubes") ... and an ultracompact Elmar 35 3,5... can't imagine how inventing the way to set an high price onto... collateral chances for Summarex 85 1,5 and, someway, Hektor 125 2,5... The Summar is a great Leica lens. I should know; I have 11 of them. It produces a truly distinctive 'look'.A modern version (probably based on the rigid version to avoid issues about collapsing) would be my choice, but could Leica maintain that wonderful bokeh in a modern design? I have already mentioned the 7.3cm Hektor as having similar interesting bokeh. While the 3.5cm Elmar is nice, the later f 3.5 and f2.8 35mm Summarons are much better. The other possibility might be a 35mm Summicron based upon the 8 elements design. The Mountain Elmar is a nice lens to look at and hold, but the results from mine do nothing to get me excited. I much prefer using the old lenses myself, with adaptors where necessary, rather than replicas, of course, so I may not be in the 'target market'. William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted October 16, 2017 Share #91 Posted October 16, 2017 ... - Summar f2 ? Has an historical halo (justified or not) of one of the few "poor" Leitz lenses... ... Most Summars are foggy due to bad cement between two lens elements, so there would even be a reason to produce a new version without this fault. And if one has seen a Summar with clear lenses and coated ... it is no „poor“ lens at all. Btw: Mr. von Oeynhausen, who is the present product manager of the M system, was seen at the presentation of the M10 - with a Summar on his M 10 (since I am no japanese website, this isn‘t a confirmation - yet). 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelwj Posted October 17, 2017 Share #92 Posted October 17, 2017 I'm beginning to feel a tiny bit resentful because I proposed reintroducing old formula Leica lenses several years ago and was pretty well shut down. No worries. If I'm not mistaken I was behind the idea provided the next lens was a 35mm pre-asph Summilux with a 0.7m MFD. My vote goes for a 35mm pre-asph Summilux with a 0.7m MFD. But, if the Thambar turns out to be a product, then they've re-done a 28mm and a 90mm, it makes sense for the next one to be a 50mm, I'm with Luigi, a 1.5/50 Xenon (can't call it a Summarit anymore...) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted October 17, 2017 Share #93 Posted October 17, 2017 Most Summars are foggy due to bad cement between two lens elements, so there would even be a reason to produce a new version without this fault. And if one has seen a Summar with clear lenses and coated ... it is no „poor“ lens at all. Btw: Mr. von Oeynhausen, who is the present product manager of the M system, was seen at the presentation of the M10 - with a Summar on his M 10 (since I am no japanese website, this isn‘t a confirmation - yet). How come all 11 of my Summars, both coated and uncoated, are fine? Many of these were 'accidental purchases' which came attached to a camera. The lens also has much more character than most modern Leica lenses. My vote would be for a modern version of the now comparatively rare and expensive Rigid Summar. William 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
maximilianm3 Posted October 17, 2017 Share #94 Posted October 17, 2017 my guess is that it doesn't really matter for how much this new Thambar is sold because it's a limited edition and Leica will find people that buy it. Just look at the Summaron, which is to my eyes a useless lens as there are many (better and cheaper) alternatives around. If Leica were to make a new goggled 35mm I'd be interested, providing it is priced as a user and not collector item..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpclee Posted October 17, 2017 Share #95 Posted October 17, 2017 Somebody just won a Nobel prize in economics for studying the irrationality and lack of self control of people. Leica can assist in future studies by providing customer data 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral75 Posted October 17, 2017 Author Share #96 Posted October 17, 2017 Latest tweet from Nokishita Camera:https://twitter.com/nokishita_c/status/920208250800291842- the Thambar-M 90mm f/2.2 will be announced tonight [is it a Japanese tonight or a European tonight?]- stores will take orders from 10am tomorrow. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted October 17, 2017 Share #97 Posted October 17, 2017 - stores will take orders from 10am tomorrow. I'll be sure to join the queue outside. [emoji3] Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted October 17, 2017 Share #98 Posted October 17, 2017 Latest tweet from Nokishita Camera: https://twitter.com/nokishita_c/status/920208250800291842 - the Thambar-M 90mm f/2.2 will be announced tonight [is it a Japanese tonight or a European tonight?] - stores will take orders from 10am tomorrow. It might be a trial run, but US Leica fans were talking about the 'new' Thambar at the LHSA meet in Chicago last week. LHSA is also launching a version of the 50mm APO Summicron with an appearance similar to that of the Rigid Summicron. When I saw it I thought it was the Rigid model. William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral75 Posted October 17, 2017 Author Share #99 Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) Announced: http://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/M-Lenses/Thambar-M-90-f-2.2 http://de.leica-camera.com/Fotografie/Leica-M/M-Objektive/London London was the code name of the camera. Edited October 17, 2017 by Mistral75 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 17, 2017 Share #100 Posted October 17, 2017 Why loving the new Summaron and not the new Thambar? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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