Do Hasselblad mulitple price drops threaten the S system

[Photon42]

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I think we are entering the error of mobile phone cameras taking over photography period. I have a good mate of mine whos father had a very successful camera business and his son (my mate) has really struggled to keep afloat. With the way technology and mobile phones have advanced, the only people buying cameras are die hard photographers................everyone else is happy with what they can get/achieve with a mobile phone and share them on FB Istagram and the likes 

 

My 2 cents

 

Neil

 

 

Throwing in my two Rappen (ou bien, centimes) here -

 

While in relation to the thread title it is a tad far fetched to imply the Hasselblad prices are coming down due to the latest iPhone announcement, mobile phones totally blur the lines between optical and software impact to the picture. At first, the mobile phone industry brought people to the photography space who would have never done that before as it would have implied too much hassle (Hassel for Neil   ) and cost. Now, the casual shooters will convert as well, doing the typical family and life documentation shots. Thus unfortunately means gear cost will go up at some point on these pieces specifically being built for nerds (us) 

[Photon42]

35mm lenses have always been much faster than medium format. And they've also had less DOF. Certainly if you look at the ultra fast 50's made over the years by Canon, Nikon and Leica. Simply 35mm has been where the development of ultra fast lenses has been important. The puny little 35mm format needed ultra fast lenses to keep the ISO down. The development of lenses for ultra shallow DOF is a bi-product of needing faster glass to offset poor ISO performance. It's something that medium format cameras didn't bother about except for the occasional short tele portrait lens.

 

Medium format is about the quality of the transitions not how shallow the DOF is. Leica is the only MF manufacturer to have made a range of medium format lenses faster than f2.8. The X1D lenses are actually in line with the lenses Hasselblad already makes, speed wise. And those are in line with Phase lenses. And GFX lenses. And Pentax.....

 

And how big do you want the lenses to be? The X1D is built to be as compact as possible. Half a stop can double the size/weight of a lens. Maybe a fast portrait lens will come. It'll be big though. And heavy. Do big heavy lenses seem like they're ideal for the X1D body? If you want fast. Buy a S.

 

Leica S45mm CS is 1100 grams. Hasselblad XC 45mm is 420 grams. Difference is half a stop. And three times the price. Smaller, lighter and cheaper lenses aren't going to be faster. And if they were there'd be pages of people bitching about the price. Heck, they already are.....

 

Gordon

 

Gordon

 

somewhat your message escaped me view, sorry. The medium format we are talking about here, is actually significantly smaller than in the old days with film. I do have two fast f/2 lenses from that area. One Contax and one being Hasselblad. Both without leaf shutter (Leica S lenses below f/2.8 basically means f/2.5 in all but one case, which again is without a shutter).

I am not a lens expert, but I am pretty certain the very lens without leaf shutter can be built lighter and faster than having a shutter built-in. And I cannot see how this is going to be a bad thing as an option to have. It is likely though that, as technology progresses, Hasselblad's electronic shutter evolves into an almost complete replacement to a mechanical one. Last not least: If you start a new mount, it is good to have adaptation options. We are getting there, eventually.

 

Ivo

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[FlashGordonPhotography]

).

I am not a lens expert, but I am pretty certain the very lens without leaf shutter can be built lighter and faster than having a shutter built-in. And I cannot see how this is going to be a bad thing as an option to have. It is likely though that, as technology progresses, Hasselblad's electronic shutter evolves into an almost complete replacement to a mechanical one. Last not least: If you start a new mount, it is good to have adaptation options. We are getting there, eventually.

 

Ivo

Generally, yes. For example CS lenses are lighter than S lenses. However at the same time the XC lenses for the X1D are smaller than thier Fuji film counterparts, S lenses and most others. And all the XC lenses have a leaf shutter. They're also lighter.

 

The electronic shutter upgrade in the GFX and X1D are welcome but the readout is slow (250ms and 300mms respectively). Almost any movement will be recorded. It's going to take just a bit more development by SOny until we have a global shutter. We don't have on in 35mm sensors cameras yet. When we do. It'll change everything. Still, even with our current limitations adaptors are starting to appear for the X1D and a firmly established for the GFX. The big issue now is electronic aperture control if you want to use modern lenses from other manufacturers.

 

I've already completed my X1D kit. A couple of HC lenses did that. Sure I want the zoom (if it's good like the Fuji one and not terrible like the Leica one) and the macro. Yes I want a fast portrait prime. But I don't want f1.4. Personally I mostly don't like too thin DOF for portraits. I prefer the isolation provided by compression in a short to mid telephoto lens. 80-100mm at f2 to f2.5 is where I shoot people. I can already get the equivalent in mini MF now, pretty easily.

 

If you've ever had the joy of shooting the S100mm f2 I think you'd see that it's plenty thin. Some call it the S Noctilux. It may be a DOF equivalent of 1.6 but the way it draws makes it seem less than that. And I'm not seeing a lot of working or experienced medium format shooters go on about not having enough shallow DOF. That's a 35mm and APSC thing.

 

Gordon

[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

 

 

 

If you've ever had the joy of shooting the S100mm f2 I think you'd see that it's plenty thin. Some call it the S Noctilux. It may be a DOF equivalent of 1.6 but the way it draws makes it seem less than that. And I'm not seeing a lot of working or experienced medium format shooters go on about not having enough shallow DOF. That's a 35mm and APSC thing.

 

Gordon

Gordon

When my S120 lens sh!t itself (I love that lens) I was given a S100mm as a loaner but only really had the chance to hold it and look at it before I headed back to the rig for a month. Leica managed to have my S120 repaired and waiting for me when I got home so I really didn't have a chance of using it............like I have already said, I love my S120mm but wondered if you have ever tried the two of them out side by side............let me ask in the S section

 

Neil

[mgrayson3]

I have yet to feel that any of the primes have insufficiently narrow DoF, and I was an enthusiastic Canon 85/1.2 user. My complaint with the zoom is less the DoF than the quality of the bokeh. The primes are gorgeous. The zoom is a compromise. Stopped down, it doesn't matter - the color and sharpness are there. But the primes in the f/2.5-f/4 range are magical!

 

--Matt

Edited September 15, 2017 by mgrayson3

[Paul J]

Used S prices are on a very steep downhill slide. If you want the S and don't need reliability then it's a great time to buy and will be getting even better over the coming months as prices sink lower.

 

As for new, as it stands from my personal experience with Hasselblad I would take the H6-50c over the S 007 and the new price is unbelievably good, it's probably the best buy right now if the camera is right for you. My H kit is rock solid and very dependable and has been probably the best investment in gear I have made in terms of money spent and long term durability and viability and what I have got back from it and how little I've had to upgrade it. The 50 CMOS backs really are exceptional.

 

A 008 S may be another thing though and I'm interested to see what materialises. I hope Leica can get it right because I prefer the Leica IQ and rendering. While I still have trust issues with Leica's reliability I may jump in if it's right.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Paul J

[rosuna]

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The S would be more interesting with a Foveon sensor for studio... 

[lx1713]

Thinking about the price drops, it does dilute the S camera's value for a potential buyer, like myself. Because somewhere in the future there going to be a mirrorless version.

 

And if Leica came out with a mirrorless S, does it make sense to have a new range of lenses to compete in size with the X1D.

 

Or does it make sense for Leica to use the additional flange to sensor plane distance to create new value such as a tilt mechanism built into the body like a Rollei SL66E or even tilt/shift. I don't see the possibility of replacing a tech camera completely because the distance is too short but the value of such a system might just be attractive enough because of the flexibility.

[jaapv]

The S would be more interesting with a Foveon sensor for studio...

 

Given the difficulty of even constructing one larger than APS, this appears to be rather unlikely.

[BernardC]

And if Leica came out with a mirrorless S, does it make sense to have a new range of lenses to compete in size with the X1D.

 

Or does it make sense for Leica to use the additional flange to sensor plane distance to create new value such as a tilt mechanism built into the body like a Rollei SL66E or even tilt/shift. I don't see the possibility of replacing a tech camera completely because the distance is too short but the value of such a system might just be attractive enough because of the flexibility.

That product already exists. It's the Sinar S30|45 which can be used with S lenses (CS-only, I think), or with various Sinar camera platforms and lenses.

[lx1713]

I know about the Sinar. It's a digital back that can use S lenses and the P3/ Lantec bodies. A truly marvelous extension of the S system that says they are serious about the professional market but thanks for the reminder.

 

I'm just musing about what Leica can do with a mirrorless that competes directly with a hasselblad X1D and Fujifilm G or whether they should even do so. If the S range is to remain unchanged for a mirrorless S, the flange to sensor distance will remain the same, the lenses will be heavier than anything from Hasselblad and Fujifilm. With the S, the SL and TL already laid down, I just don't think Leica will want to compete directly with them at this point but that day come.

 

For the user, it's a different proposition, there's a wealth of choices but at this point, I'm just inclined to an S.

[rosuna]

Given the difficulty of even constructing one larger than APS, this appears to be rather unlikely.

 

 

Sigma's owner says the Foveon is scalable in size. No problem with that. The current size of Foveon sensors is APS-H.

 

The real problem is the processor and the software. The Foveon cameras use general purpose processors because there is not specific development for it. 

 

http://cameras.reviewed.com/features/interview-sigma-ceo-kazuto-yamaki-talks-companys-design-philosophy-and-future-plans

 

https://www.albedomedia.com/tecnologia/encuentros-cp-2016-sigma/

Edited October 14, 2017 by rosuna

[lx1713]

It might be stretching a little far but maybe for a mirrorless S, Leica could really go compact, beyond what Hasselblad or Fujifilm is willing.

 

Perhaps Mirrorless S lenses could forego that flange to sensor distance of the original S and shrink to a SL flange to sensor distance. Start the "mirrorless S lenses" at f4 or f 5.6.

 

Or retain the S flange to sensor distance. Give them a larger image circle to allow use on the SL body with tilt / shift capabilities. After all some SL users are using Canon T/S lenses modded to their SL bodies.

 

Just a thought.

[plasticman]

in line with Leica's pricing tragedy

Not the first time that autocorrect has hit the nail on the head.

[tllabron]

I think we are entering the error of mobile phone cameras taking over photography period. I have a good mate of mine whos father had a very successful camera business and his son (my mate) has really struggled to keep afloat. With the way technology and mobile phones have advanced, the only people buying cameras are die hard photographers................everyone else is happy with what they can get/achieve with a mobile phone and share them on FB Istagram and the likes 

 

My 2 cents

 

Neil

Neil-D-Williams,

I think you are sooooo right.  Most of the new phones are 12mp or 12mp plus.  The Galaxy 8 and note 8's 4K video availability are right up there with Leica and other camera makers, with slow motion and other offerings.  My 25 year old twins are definite phone camera users.  Though there is a photographer in the area that uses cameras and various lens that did their weddings and engagement photos, although just recently one twin asked her sister to take phone pictures of her and a friend who is pregnant at the same time and length in a special garden.  My daughter and her husband did hire the photographer to take their baby announcement pictures when they found out.  This young lady who is the photographer seems to be making it though as a business.  She offers a lot though including CD's, posting etc.

 

When I bring out my photos of the safari I went on they are only then intrigued when I tell them that the photo was taken and was only able to be taken with a 400mm lens on my camera.  And there are some wide angle shot that they are interested in when I used my 19mm on my camera.  Anything else is OK but no big deal  because they could do it also with their camera phones.  They have seen very little of my photographer because they are just not interested in what their dad has been or done.

 

I some times wonder if Leica should work with one of these phone company and maybe they could get some insight.  Some of the new technology is pretty impressive.  Take Hasselblad for example, they have worked with Motorola and made the zoom lens attachment for that phone, The Moto.

 

The only thing that I can see has having hope on the horizon is like when cheaper camera motor winders came out and every on the scene that there were going to be so much more great photography out there, but what happened is a ton of mediocre pictures flooded the market and people started to realize that it was the person pushing the button and knew what they were doing that created the pictures not the camera winding mechanism.

 

Tom L.L.

[jaapv]

Hmm.. with very few exceptions the people taking cellphone images would not have been taking photographs in the past, or using a cheap point-and-shoot. I don’t think the absolute number of serious photographers has diminished.

[xiaubauu2009]

It might be stretching a little far but maybe for a mirrorless S, Leica could really go compact, beyond what Hasselblad or Fujifilm is willing.

 

Perhaps Mirrorless S lenses could forego that flange to sensor distance of the original S and shrink to a SL flange to sensor distance. Start the "mirrorless S lenses" at f4 or f 5.6.

 

Or retain the S flange to sensor distance. Give them a larger image circle to allow use on the SL body with tilt / shift capabilities. After all some SL users are using Canon T/S lenses modded to their SL bodies.

 

Just a thought.

 

 

I think X1D is as compact as it can get for 44x33 sensor camera. There's not much fat to trim anymore on the body.

 

The best thing about mirrorless camera is that the focusing will be pretty accurate.

[helged]

I think X1D is as compact as it can get for 44x33 sensor camera. There's not much fat to trim anymore on the body.

 

The best thing about mirrorless camera is that the focusing will be pretty accurate.

 

 

...plus full control over the exposure (as for the SL).

[wlaidlaw]

Given how large the throat and body of the SL are, I wonder if there is a thought by Leica, to offering a larger than 24 x 36 sensor version of the SL at some point. If the lenses had a larger circle of coverage than the 43.2mm diameter of standard 35mm, might go some way to explaining their size. It would not be a camera for everybody and I think they would still need to offer a 24 x 36 version with say 34MP and a larger sensor version with 50MP. If the SL lenses don't have the coverage, then SL mount versions of the S lenses could be sold. 

 

Wilson

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[lx1713]

I think X1D is as compact as it can get for 44x33 sensor camera. There's not much fat to trim anymore on the body.

 

The best thing about mirrorless camera is that the focusing will be pretty accurate.

 

You are right. My words weren't precise, I was thinking about the lenses rather.

 

I assumed with the SL and TL bodies, a slim bodied mirrorless S would be a natural progression for Leica so the thoughts centred on beating Hasselblad and Fujifilm at the price game by offering something like the equivalent of an M's Elmar-M and Super Elmar-M. After all if a fast aperture lens is needed, the mass of the lenses is going to be substantial. To have a balanced body, I would have stuck with the current S bodies with the current S lenses.

 

And to beat them effectively, a range of lightweight MF mirrorless f4.5 - 5.6 lenses might just bracket their price offerings. I don't know of many MF users who really need that low a depth of field of fast lenses that often. Most of whom, would rather have zero distortion, chromatic aberrations, etc The shot discipline needed just doesn't really need a super thin dof. If Leica builds a body tough enough to do Mt Everest or the Artics, wouldn't a photographer want the lightest possible package. I can imagine that a "Super Elmar-S" to be really compact and lightweight.

 

Maybe that's part of the Leica S problem. The lenses are just too fast which makes them too expensive and heavy. Leica understands the GAS factor quite well but professionals do develop a relatively thick protective shell.

Edited October 19, 2017 by lx1713