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Do Hasselblad mulitple price drops threaten the S system


wlaidlaw

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I see that Hasselblad announced today, that they are dropping the price of their standard H6-D50, with 80mm/f2.8 to just £10,800. Does this indicate desperation on Hasselblad's part and what implications does this have for the S System? From the professional's POV, the Hasselblad system is more flexible with its back being able to be used on technical/rail cameras in comparison to the S, although I understand there is some sort of clunky device that enables the S to be used with Sinar rail cameras.

 

The S is obviously more usable as a regular hand held than the very heavy Hasselblad. I recall some years ago hiring an H3D with 55-110 zoom and 28/f4 for a project where the client wanted 50MP images at a yacht show. By lunchtime my back was so sore I had to tell my client that if he could not live with the 18MP from my M9, he would have to find another photographer. Luckily for me he agreed. 

 

Wilson

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I see that Hasselblad announced today, that they are dropping the price of their standard H6-D50, with 80mm/f2.8 to just £10,800. Does this indicate desperation on Hasselblad's part and what implications does this have for the S System? From the professional's POV, the Hasselblad system is more flexible with its back being able to be used on technical/rail cameras in comparison to the S, although I understand there is some sort of clunky device that enables the S to be used with Sinar rail cameras.

 

The S is obviously more usable as a regular hand held than the very heavy Hasselblad. I recall some years ago hiring an H3D with 55-110 zoom and 28/f4 for a project where the client wanted 50MP images at a yacht show. By lunchtime my back was so sore I had to tell my client that if he could not live with the 18MP from my M9, he would have to find another photographer. Luckily for me he agreed. 

 

Wilson

 

Where do you see this with the lens included? I see an announcement just for the body and with no VAT included

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Where do you see this with the lens included? I see an announcement just for the body and with no VAT included

 

It was on DP review. They did not go into details but it was described as an H6D-50 kit, so I was guessing, included the standard 80/f2.8 lens, as they showed on the attached image. Even without the lens and VAT it is still cheaper than the S-007 body at £12,500 + VAT. I would guess that Hasselblad is being squeezed at the top end by Phase One, with a wider range of lenses and at the lightweight end by Fuji, Pentax and Leica both with the 007 and cheaper 006. I have retired from the yacht business now, but if not, I would consider an S006 or 007 as much of the photography is hand held these days, with the brokers not prepared to pay for well set up photos with tripod, proper lighting, reflectors and snoots. A lot of them are using their own phone shots - cheapskates!

 

Who makes the Hasselblad H series lenses these days - Fuji? 

 

Wilson

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Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS

I really don't see it effecting the second hand price of the S system, its already at about 30% of the new price. As fore the new price of say the S008 I think that will also stay in line with Leica's pricing tragedy

 

Neil

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It was on DP review. They did not go into details but it was described as an H6D-50 kit, so I was guessing, included the standard 80/f2.8 lens, as they showed on the attached image. Even without the lens and VAT it is still cheaper than the S-007 body at £12,500 + VAT. I would guess that Hasselblad is being squeezed at the top end by Phase One, with a wider range of lenses and at the lightweight end by Fuji, Pentax and Leica both with the 007 and cheaper 006. I have retired from the yacht business now, but if not, I would consider an S006 or 007 as much of the photography is hand held these days, with the brokers not prepared to pay for well set up photos with tripod, proper lighting, reflectors and snoots. A lot of them are using their own phone shots - cheapskates!

 

Who makes the Hasselblad H series lenses these days - Fuji? 

 

Wilson

 

I see thanks. Yes, you are right it seems that there is a lot of price adjustment in the MF market.

 

By the way, the last official price I saw for the S007 is at £15,800 including VAT!!!  :o (about 5% more than your price)

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I see thanks. Yes, you are right it seems that there is a lot of price adjustment in the MF market.

 

By the way, the last official price I saw for the S007 is at £15,800 including VAT!!!  :o (about 5% more than your price)

 

Red Dot are still selling the S007 at £12,500 + VAT and I have no doubt if they have stock, you could twist their arm to get it substantially lower than that, especially with the S008 in the offing. 

 

Wilson

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Leica seem to move along with total disregard for what other brands are doing. They operate within a niche within a niche and seem to make a profit.

 

The H cameras are too heavy to worry the S. However the S system is probably at close to zero sales with the GFX and X1D on the market. The lens reliability issue didn't help as well. If you market share is effectively nil I don't see how anything can lower it.

 

Leica will almost be doing a full brand re-launch if they release a S008. Kind of like starting from scratch, except with a full lens line up.

 

Gordon

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Leica seem to move along with total disregard for what other brands are doing.

 

[...]

 

 

Isn't that also what we like, among other things  :p ? Actually, I do think they observe the market - it is probably that hitting the correct time window for a new camera release with all R&D involved cannot be a hundred percent planned.

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I see that Hasselblad announced today, that they are dropping the price of their standard H6-D50, with 80mm/f2.8 to just £10,800. Does this indicate desperation on Hasselblad's part and what implications does this have for the S System?

 

 

I think it's probably more of an indication that X1D sales have cannibalized a lot of the market for the H6D-50c. The X1D is less than half the weight, was about one-third the price, but has the same sensor, the same firmware, the same workflow, and can even use the same lenses (although not yet with autofocus) in addition to its own less extensive but ever expanding line of very high-quality lenses Now that Hasselblad has enabled the electronic shutter, the X1D can even be attached to a technical camera (Cambo has already announced support for the X1D  in its Actus line). The OVF in the H6D might be easier to see through, but beyond that it's very hard to justify a sizable premium for it. I don't see that they had a lot of choice. I think they're mainly trying to clear out the inventory of the 50MP H6 cameras now that the 100MP version is more available.

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I think it's probably more of an indication that X1D sales have cannibalized a lot of the market for the H6D-50c. The X1D is less than half the weight, was about one-third the price, but has the same sensor, the same firmware, the same workflow, and can even use the same lenses (although not yet with autofocus) in addition to its own less extensive but ever expanding line of very high-quality lenses Now that Hasselblad has enabled the electronic shutter, the X1D can even be attached to a technical camera (Cambo has already announced support for the X1D  in its Actus line). The OVF in the H6D might be easier to see through, but beyond that it's very hard to justify a sizable premium for it. I don't see that they had a lot of choice. I think they're mainly trying to clear out the inventory of the 50MP H6 cameras now that the 100MP version is more available.

 

 

I think you are spot on.

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As a non professional S user I have been asking myself how the x1, S, Fuji and H system (and phase) will position in the market.

First I believe that if someone is spending 20k and more he/she would probably not buy just based on price but buy the system which works best for him. Of course if several system would work fine for someone, price could be the deciding factor.

 

The S and X1 are still pretty different systems IMO.

Both are  compact for MF, but the x1 being much more compact (which I consider a great advantage).

There are various things which speak for the S as well: fast, big OVF, a pretty big number of very good lenses, option to use third party lenses (due to focal plane and central shutter), strong weather sealing, flexibility to use a SL as a backup for the S (with comparable user interface).

 

The X1 and Fuji get a lot of attraction because they are NEW on the market, but like allways after some time the NEW-factor is lost.

 

I hope that there will be enough room that we will have those several mf options in the future and believe each has its attractions.

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Tom, 

 

I would agree about the X1D lenses. I found them a bit underwhelming. If you are buying what amounts to an "art" camera (it certainly is not a sports camera), then in my view it has to come with fast lenses for subject isolation. F3.2 or f3.5 is in my view not really fast enough. This is where I always felt the Contax 645 range had an edge. Their "standard" lens was an 80mm f2 and no bigger than the Hasselblad 90mm f3.2. 

 

Wilson

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Tom,

 

I would agree about the X1D lenses. I found them a bit underwhelming. If you are buying what amounts to an "art" camera (it certainly is not a sports camera), then in my view it has to come with fast lenses for subject isolation. F3.2 or f3.5 is in my view not really fast enough. This is where I always felt the Contax 645 range had an edge. Their "standard" lens was an 80mm f2 and no bigger than the Hasselblad 90mm f3.2.

 

Wilson

They should have made the leaf shutter optional. This is the limiting factor. Really not needed as a mandatory feature for an almost travel camera.

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They should have made the leaf shutter optional. This is the limiting factor. Really not needed as a mandatory feature for an almost travel camera.

 

 

They have done this to save space inside the camera since the camera does NOT have a focal plane shutter they rely on leaf shutters only. Which is sort of how Hasselblad's philosophy has worked since forever. 

 

I agree it makes the X1D less modular... but it doesn't need to be modular, the lenses are 'cheap' and the quality is great! 

 

You can buy a body with 3 lenses for under 16500 euro. 

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They have done this to save space inside the camera since the camera does NOT have a focal plane shutter they rely on leaf shutters only. Which is sort of how Hasselblad's philosophy has worked since forever.

 

I agree it makes the X1D less modular... but it doesn't need to be modular, the lenses are 'cheap' and the quality is great!

 

You can buy a body with 3 lenses for under 16500 euro.

Hi Jip

 

there point was that leaf shutter lenses are somewhat limited regarding the max aperture. The X1D is such a departure from tradition, that in my eyes a focal plane shutter would have helped for really fast as well as really light lenses. Not to mention the adaptation options.

 

Besides - my 203FE allows for both [emoji12]

 

Take care

Ivo

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35mm lenses have always been much faster than medium format. And they've also had less DOF. Certainly if you look at the ultra fast 50's made over the years by Canon, Nikon and Leica. Simply 35mm has been where the development of ultra fast lenses has been important. The puny little 35mm format needed ultra fast lenses to keep the ISO down. The development of lenses for ultra shallow DOF is a bi-product of needing faster glass to offset poor ISO performance. It's something that medium format cameras didn't bother about except for the occasional short tele portrait lens.

 

Medium format is about the quality of the transitions not how shallow the DOF is. Leica is the only MF manufacturer to have made a range of medium format lenses faster than f2.8. The X1D lenses are actually in line with the lenses Hasselblad already makes, speed wise. And those are in line with Phase lenses. And GFX lenses. And Pentax.....

 

And how big do you want the lenses to be? The X1D is built to be as compact as possible. Half a stop can double the size/weight of a lens. Maybe a fast portrait lens will come. It'll be big though. And heavy. Do big heavy lenses seem like they're ideal for the X1D body? If you want fast. Buy a S.

 

Leica S45mm CS is 1100 grams. Hasselblad XC 45mm is 420 grams. Difference is half a stop. And three times the price. Smaller, lighter and cheaper lenses aren't going to be faster. And if they were there'd be pages of people bitching about the price. Heck, they already are.....

 

Gordon

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I hope that there will be enough room that we will have those several mf options in the future and believe each has its attractions.

 

I think we're entering the Golden Age of digital medium format, personally. I'm serious about that - there's more innovation in the field now than we've seen in years. I'm looking forward to the X2D, the H7, whatever Fuji decides to call the GFX follow-on, and the S008.

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I think we're entering the Golden Age of digital medium format, personally. I'm serious about that - there's more innovation in the field now than we've seen in years. I'm looking forward to the X2D, the H7, whatever Fuji decides to call the GFX follow-on, and the S008.

Pentax was first to significantly lower the cost of entry with the 645D, making MF digital more accessible as other companies followed.

 

Jeff

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Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS

I think we're entering the Golden Age of digital medium format, personally. I'm serious about that - there's more innovation in the field now than we've seen in years. I'm looking forward to the X2D, the H7, whatever Fuji decides to call the GFX follow-on, and the S008.

I think we are entering the error of mobile phone cameras taking over photography period. I have a good mate of mine whos father had a very successful camera business and his son (my mate) has really struggled to keep afloat. With the way technology and mobile phones have advanced, the only people buying cameras are die hard photographers................everyone else is happy with what they can get/achieve with a mobile phone and share them on FB Istagram and the likes 

 

My 2 cents

 

Neil

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