Brooktaw Posted September 7, 2017 Share #1 Posted September 7, 2017 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) I recently returned to film Leicas after a 30 year absence and bought a used M6. The reputable dealer I bought it from drew my attention to the fact that the serial number was an oddity since it belonged, according to all the records, to a 1968 M4. The number is 1210830. Since I understand the serial numbers on M4s were always engraved on the body, rather than stamped on the hot shoe, a simple parts bin replacement doesn't seem to be a plausible explanation. Any ideas? Looking forward to learning and participating in this knowledgeable forum. Chris Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited September 7, 2017 by Brooktaw Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/276607-m4-serial-number-on-an-m6-hotshoe/?do=findComment&comment=3354329'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 7, 2017 Posted September 7, 2017 Hi Brooktaw, Take a look here M4 serial number on an M6 hotshoe!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Frase Posted September 7, 2017 Share #2 Posted September 7, 2017 sure enough seems to be a 68 M4! I'm sure someone with a bit more knowledge will be a long soon to explain. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.noctilux Posted September 7, 2017 Share #3 Posted September 7, 2017 (edited) It's a joke. The number's font is not right : M4 period or M6 period . Here's pico's M4: look at "3" and "8". Edited September 7, 2017 by a.noctilux Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 7, 2017 Share #4 Posted September 7, 2017 Agree. Somebody ground off the anodizing as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 7, 2017 Share #5 Posted September 7, 2017 (edited) It's a joke. The number's font is not right : M4 period or M6 period . Exactly ... that "3 with angle" was used neither in M4 nor in M6... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! If the body is good for use, you can get it at a good discount on mean evaluation (it's not 100% original) , and use it with satisfaction and with the pleasure to own anyway "an oddity". On a more serious side, given that s/n is the main way to identify a camera, one could think that the people that changed the shoe faking the s/n had a reason to do it... where the camera came from ? Came in his hands legitimately... ? ... and welcome to the Forum !! Edited September 7, 2017 by luigi bertolotti Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! If the body is good for use, you can get it at a good discount on mean evaluation (it's not 100% original) , and use it with satisfaction and with the pleasure to own anyway "an oddity". On a more serious side, given that s/n is the main way to identify a camera, one could think that the people that changed the shoe faking the s/n had a reason to do it... where the camera came from ? Came in his hands legitimately... ? ... and welcome to the Forum !! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/276607-m4-serial-number-on-an-m6-hotshoe/?do=findComment&comment=3354362'>More sharing options...
Brooktaw Posted September 7, 2017 Author Share #6 Posted September 7, 2017 Thanks very much for the quick and informative responses. The references to the font styles are helpful. Luigi I've wondered about the reasons for a change but if you were going to do that I don't think you would make it obvious by using an incorrect number and it's a lot of work to make something that is otherwise such a precise replacement. I bought it at an adjusted price. It is in great condition and it got me back into Leica film cameras so I'm satisfied,. Chris Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted September 8, 2017 Share #7 Posted September 8, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Agree. Somebody ground off the anodizing as well. Why would someone do that? For what advantage? . Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 8, 2017 Share #8 Posted September 8, 2017 Good question Pico : let's go by fantasy : - I'm a standard city thief, not specialized in cameras - During a standard city tour, I catch the opportunity to grab a camera from someone - Some friends tell me that "Leica" is a good brand... good money to cash in - But a well visible s/n isn't nice... a bit disturbing... it's clearly a unique identifier - But I'm not interested in finely made jobs : I roughly file away the s/n (wiping the black anodizing, necessarly) - Then go to some friend craftman decently equipped (for instance, someone accustomed to work on jewels/watches, which probably are another field of interest for me) - And he quickly engraves onto a 7 digit random number.... with proper tool, a 10-15 minutes job. Conclusion : quick job, little expense for the s/n engraving, and some middleman probably gives me at least 200-250 euros for the item... I've made my day, anyway. Of course all of this is pure speculation : but things COULD have gone like this. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooktaw Posted September 8, 2017 Author Share #9 Posted September 8, 2017 (edited) Post deleted Edited September 8, 2017 by Brooktaw Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 8, 2017 Share #10 Posted September 8, 2017 I think Luigi's analysis may be disturbingly spot-on. BTW, where did the original S/N go? The top plate has been replaced with the wrong type. I've never seen an orange B on an M4 shutter dial either. Is this a composite of two cameras? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted September 8, 2017 Share #11 Posted September 8, 2017 (edited) Yes, Luigi's speculation sounds realistic - if we assume it is a real M6. Then the "friend craftman decently equipped" only had to manipulate the hotshoe. If it were an M4 he had to change the whole top plate. Perhaps Brooktaw can tell us, if it is an M6: Has your camera light metering? Edited September 8, 2017 by UliWer Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 8, 2017 Share #12 Posted September 8, 2017 Let's have an image of the whole camera, please. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted September 8, 2017 Share #13 Posted September 8, 2017 Dismantling the camera, you must find a serial number in some place Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 8, 2017 Share #14 Posted September 8, 2017 Dismantling the camera, you must find a serial number in some place That's true... where is it, on M6 ?... You know, I haven't one... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted September 8, 2017 Share #15 Posted September 8, 2017 The problem that could arise is if at some future point a CLA or RF repair is required. When the top cover is removed, the "real" serial number on the inner body will be revealed. If that matches up to a camera on a stolen register, the buyer could be charged with knowingly receiving stolen goods, especially if the receipt shows that less than the going rate was paid for the camera. I would not touch it with the proverbial barge pole. In London slang: "it's a "hookey" Leica. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 8, 2017 Share #16 Posted September 8, 2017 Guys, let's not frighten too much a new Forum member... ... I made just a speculation... Brooktaw, here in the Forum we aren't policemen nor investigators... simply, we have a good knowledge of many details around Leicas... and like to discuss on oddities about, and very seldom in outlaw-related matters... Anyway, if you know well the dealer, I'd pose some kind questions about origin... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madNbad Posted September 9, 2017 Share #17 Posted September 9, 2017 You can see remains of the bubbles from zinc oxidation inside the hot shoe. Jaap is most likely correct about someone grinding the top plate but more for cosmetic rather than nefarious reasons. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelwj Posted September 9, 2017 Share #18 Posted September 9, 2017 I doubt that there would be enough hotshoe left to engrave a serial number after grinding the old one off. The hotshoe on my old M6 was worn like that too, it sat a little proud of the top plate. The camera in question is well used - you can see the wear on the rewind crank. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted September 9, 2017 Share #19 Posted September 9, 2017 (edited) M4 with an M6 top plate, to put the serial number back the easy option would be to use the M6 hot shoe and transfer the number. The previous question 'has it got a meter?' is the key. Edited September 9, 2017 by 250swb Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 9, 2017 Share #20 Posted September 9, 2017 (edited) I doubt that there would be enough hotshoe left to engrave a serial number after grinding the old one off.... Yep, I thought of this issue (and haven't an M6 to make hands on considerations about... ), but imho, always supposing it was made as a quick & dirty job, there can be sufficient thickness to do... a more detailed picture of the item would be useful... but from the initial picture looks to me that the rounding of the left edge of the shoe has been "eaten away".... Moreover... rotating the detail it looks like the s/n has been engraved with a certain inclination towards the theoric horizontal position... of course isn't a detail subject to strict tolerancing, but in original engravings is undoubtly more correct... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited September 9, 2017 by luigi bertolotti Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/276607-m4-serial-number-on-an-m6-hotshoe/?do=findComment&comment=3355208'>More sharing options...
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