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Full Frame vs MF


Csacwp

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I'm a happy user of the M240, M246, and SL. For months I've been toying with getting an S007 and 100mm Summicron for portrait work (I currently use a 75mm Summilux and 90mm Apo-Summicron for that purpose). While the image quality and dynamic range of the MF sensor is stunning, part of me finds the images produced by it to look unaturally good. I'm starting to feel that there is something more "normal" and "honest" about the way full frame sensors render people. Does anybody else have similar thoughts?

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It's hard to explain. Many digital medium format portraits look plastic and too smooth/sharp. It's incredible from a technological standpoint but to my eye, Leica's full frame sensors capture a more honest, realistic looking photo that is easier for the viewer to relate to (since it looks similar to how it would if you had actually been there for the moment). Now as for MF film, I love the way it looks, especially for black and white, but I feel like I can get very close to that look with my M246 and apo M lenses.

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I think OP has similar to something discovered by some of us with FF related to APC-S sensors-lenses.

 

With APC-S the FF lenses feels not "honest" and "normal" and made specifically for APC-S lenses while giving same FOV as on FF are not giving same "honest" and "normal" perspective. 

Same for S APC-S MF sensor, IMO. It is cropped MF.

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I think I understand what you're talking about. It's a little like the experience between high end digital and analogue audio; a lot of people still much prefer the sound of analogue even though it has more 'noise'.

 

We don't experience a photograph the same way we experience a person in real life, so the idea that a photograph is made better by offering more startling detail I don't think holds true. It can be better as a result but not neccessarily so. But I think what's really going on here is that our nature is imperfect; people aren't perfect. The presence of flaws in some way makes an image more engaging because it reduces the tension we experience in engaging with the image. The imperfections are actually what make us human and a portrait that has a slightly degraded representation of reality is easier for us as viewers to engage with.

 

 

It would only be for studio portraiture. I've spent a lot of time testing the 007 in person and do not want to carry it around, especially to the types of places I bring my M.

 

I do however think that an S would be a mistake. It;s so crazy expensive compared to say a Fuji GFX and I don't think the Leica is going to be any better, maybe even worse?

Edited by geetee1972
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I do however think that an S would be a mistake. It;s so crazy expensive compared to say a Fuji GFX and I don't think the Leica is going to be any better, maybe even worse?

 

 

The list prices may be high, but the prices you actually purchase for are far from list price ;) 

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It's hard to explain. Many digital medium format portraits look plastic and too smooth/sharp. It's incredible from a technological standpoint but to my eye, Leica's full frame sensors capture a more honest, realistic looking photo that is easier for the viewer to relate to (since it looks similar to how it would if you had actually been there for the moment). Now as for MF film, I love the way it looks, especially for black and white, but I feel like I can get very close to that look with my M246 and apo M lenses.

 

I feel exactly the opposite: the larger the format the more natural and less plastic do images look.

Edited by tom0511
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MF is too slow and heavy for me. The lenses are very boring (most in the middle of focal range, no fast lenses, no UWA, no tele).

And I am completely happy with FF quality. Now with digital it is already insanely good. (especially the colors, and with the use of OIS).

 

MF is not too good, it is simply too "always the same", no surprises, technique instead of inspiration, always on the edge of boring.

Would I buy a MF camera just for portrait ?   NO - what a waste of resources !!!!

 

I have many FF lenses, so I am happy to use FF all the time - glad I do not have to switch. Digital FF is for me simply THE standard (in a positive way).  (I do not know if it looks most natural - but I know it looks just as I like it.)

 

When I look at old masters, even if they were using large format or MF at their time, their style was often FF like. So this is simply my preferred style.

I am quite sure Ansel would be using FF today. Or others from his time.

 

If FF should ever die, I will use DX/APS-C just as well, no problem. But currently I am very glad that digital came to FF.

Edited by steppenw0lf
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I have a much loved M10, as well as several film Leicas. Also have a Hasselblad H6D-100c and can make the following statements after a good deal of experience.

 

- Lugging around the H6D all day is a challenge

- Images from the H6D:

      Amazingly life like, appear almost three dimensional

      Colors are beautiful, fine gradations across colors

      OOF areas are excellent, obviously lens dependent

      No plastic look to my eye, just the opposite

- The M10:

      Avoids back and shoulder pain

      Is MUCH less costly

      Greater selection of excellent, zoom and fast lenses

 

For what it's worth (I have no SL nor S)

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I think I understand what you're talking about. It's a little like the experience between high end digital and analogue audio; a lot of people still much prefer the sound of analogue even though it has more 'noise'.

 

We don't experience a photograph the same way we experience a person in real life, so the idea that a photograph is made better by offering more startling detail I don't think holds true. It can be better as a result but not neccessarily so. But I think what's really going on here is that our nature is imperfect; people aren't perfect. The presence of flaws in some way makes an image more engaging because it reduces the tension we experience in engaging with the image. The imperfections are actually what make us human and a portrait that has a slightly degraded representation of reality is easier for us as viewers to engage with.

 

 

I do however think that an S would be a mistake. It;s so crazy expensive compared to say a Fuji GFX and I don't think the Leica is going to be any better, maybe even worse?

A nice and clean S2 can be bought for around USD$4,000,00 and I have seen the S100mm for around the same money. To be honest, I don't see why anything newer and modern than the S2 is needed for portraits and studio. The S2/s006 sensor is magical in controlled light, in my view.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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All four of the common formats used by advanced amateurs and professionals (Micro 4/3", APS-C, full frame, and medium format) are now capable of producing essentially noise free images at base ISO.  All four formats have enough bit depth and dynamic range that no camera should be pushed very hard in a controlled environment such as a portrait session.  All four formats are perfectly capable of capturing all the resolution that can be perceived in a moderate sized print.  If one were to capture four equivalent images, I doubt you would find any differences that could be ascribed to the format itself.  In other words, try the following.  Take a head and shoulders shot under good, controlled lighting at base ISO using:

 

4/3", 45mm lens, f/2

APS-C, 60mm lens, f/2.8

Full Frame, 90mm lens, f/4

Medium Format, 100mm lens, f/5.6

 

All four images should be noise free--one might interpret that as "plastic".  All four images should provide about the same subject isolation given the f-stops I listed (and those are reasonable f-stops for a head and shoulders portrait assuming one wants the depth of field to cover nose to ear).  The full frame and the medium format lenses will likely have more "head room" in terms of narrowing the depth of field farther; neither of these lenses will be shooting wide open while the 4/3" and APS-C will either be wide open or within a stop of wide open.  Still, these are all reasonable apertures to select depending on one's taste for subject isolation.  

 

I would expect nearly identical results.  The focal lengths don't match up perfectly in terms of field of view, but they are about as close as you can get with commonly available lenses.  Would there be some differences?  Sure.  Different lenses have different different characteristics, so the images wouldn't be completely identical.  But I wouldn't expect one format to offer a more "honest" (gritty?) view.  I wouldn't expect to see differences in resolution or edge contrast in a final print except perhaps from the character of the different lenses.  Portraits tend not to benefit much from extreme resolution and micro contrast anyway, so one is just as likely to be lowering overall contrast and compressing tones in post as not.

 

I'm not suggesting that micro 4/3" can do everything medium format can do or that there aren't differences in dynamic range between, say, a full frame camera with a given megapixel count and an APS-C camera of the same megapixel count.  Pixel pitch still matters in terms of dynamic range (by raising or lowering the noise floor).  There are still differences in bit depth between the various formats as well.  But a portrait scenario just isn't going to push the cameras or the formats very hard. Noise should be nonexistent in all four cases.  Depth of field / subject isolation should be identical.  Resolution should be above what is needed or desired for this type of picture.  Since I'm not pushing the cameras very hard, I would even expect colors to be equivalent (aside from differences in profiles, raw conversion software, camera brand philosophies, etc.).  With the exception of how different lenses render, especially out-of-focus areas, I would think I could get essentially identical images out of all four.  I don't see any particular format offering more or less "plastic" results.  I don't see any format offering more "real" results.  I suspect what the OP is referring is just differences in depth of field since the "equivalent" apertures listed above are not the only option.  If an MF photographer and a full frame photographer were each shooting at f/2.8, for example, the full frame image would look more "real" because the depth of field would be greater, better matching the extreme depth of field our naked eye.

Edited by Jared
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It's hard to explain. Many digital medium format portraits look plastic and too smooth/sharp. It's incredible from a technological standpoint but to my eye, Leica's full frame sensors capture a more honest, realistic looking photo that is easier for the viewer to relate to (since it looks similar to how it would if you had actually been there for the moment). Now as for MF film, I love the way it looks, especially for black and white, but I feel like I can get very close to that look with my M246 and apo M lenses.

 

With all due respect that absolutely makes zero sense. Regardless of it being film or digital- true medium format has everything to do with the relationship of the lens to the focal plane. An 80mm on 6x7 negative will yield a fov of roughly 40mm and in no circumstances EVER look similar to a Leica Monochrom. Ever. Unless the Monochrom was medium format than maybe, but what you're saying is unfortunately horribly misinformed. 

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