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S 008


BigBabyEarl

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I'm curious about how Thalia cinema lenses, intended to cover a larger image circle of 60+mm in diameter, perform on the 54.3x40mm (diameter ~66mm) Sony sensor and its successors. I believe this is technically possible using a ALPA plate joint to the Hasselblad or Phase One 100MP back. Perhaps one of our billionaire colleagues will find the time to try this.

 

I think here's a Summicron-C (not Thalia) on the Alpa...

alpa_with_follow_focus.png?itok=NkwpqDfv

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if there wasn't an increase in MP in S008, what would we want?

 

More responsiveness.

Although the S is the most responsive medium format camera, by a wide margin, I would like the next S to be as responsive as a really good 35mm SLR. Maybe not 1Dx-like, but 5D-like.

I want a camera that never runs out of buffer, and that has the shutter delay of an M!

 

I could care less about extra megapixels. They rarely improve images. I might feel different if I was a landscape photographer.

 

8K full-sensor video would be interesting, but Leica should make a dedicated cine camera for that. The SLR form factor isn't well-suited to video shooting.

Leica haven't even published LUTs for the SL yet (never mind ACES IDTs), I really doubt that they will get serious about video.

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More responsiveness.

Although the S is the most responsive medium format camera, by a wide margin, I would like the next S to be as responsive as a really good 35mm SLR. Maybe not 1Dx-like, but 5D-like.

I want a camera that never runs out of buffer, and that has the shutter delay of an M!

 

I could care less about extra megapixels. They rarely improve images. I might feel different if I was a landscape photographer.

 

.

Agree. I use the S2 for people photography and I hope that Leica will not drop the optical viewfinder. If they are able to add the movable focus points in the OVF, I will upgrade. If it is a bigger SL, I will buy the 007 at last.

 

The SL with the S lenses was ok in the studio after the new firmware, but I disliked the difficulty in seeing the changes in facial expressions in the electronic viewfinder. I understand that people may have a different experience with the SL and love looking into a micro TV screen of the EVF. I did not and sold the SL.

 

I hope that Leica won’t be copying the obvious EVIL camera architecture and improve the existing S camera line and keep the glorious optical viewfinder.

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Agreed regarding the OVF...I have not used the SL extensively, but I have the Sony A7Rii and the EVF for the M10. They are useful to have, but there is no comparison to a good OVF, whether a rangefinder or SLR. I shoot a lot at night, and while a camera like the A7S can make the scene appear brighter, it comes at two great costs -- an increasingly noisy viewfinder as it gets darker and darker, largely becoming useless in truly dark conditions, and more problematically, it completely destroys your night vision every time you look in the viewfinder. I actually find it easier to shoot a 4x5 camera with an f/5.6 lens at night than an EVF camera, because as long as you have a good flashlight or something visible to focus on, it is easier to do so than to constantly be blinding yourself with the screen lights. The S works impressively well at night, as the AF system is sensitive enough to focus on a bright star or the moon, and if you turn down the screen brightness it is low enough not be too bad for your night vision. It also operates easily with gloves, another advantage for my workflow. As I said, I love it, I just hope they can take the next step and bring the resolution up to a level where it can surpass some of its rivals like it did when it was released. (p.s. this is not just about comparisons, I regularly make very large prints or severe crops, and the extra resolution would be very welcome). 

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Cinematographers want "soft". That term is the opposite of "harsh," not of "sharp."

A lens that is too harsh will render skin tones in an unpleasing way, and it will have busy bokeh (background blur). That quality has nothing to do with how many line pairs a lens resolves from a test chart (which isn't an issue for cinema lenses anyway; cinema frames have much lower resolution than stills frames).

 

I agree.  I'm not sure I agree with the idea that movie frames have "lower resolution".  This is something that's very very complex to discuss and appreciate.  Because images in motion are perceived differently to a still frame / photo.  The perception of noise changes, the screen size and display technology  (projectors) is also quite different. Say hello to a 30-100' perforated or 3D reflective screen.

 

Those lower resolution individual frames are enlarged to an extremely large size. But they are generally captured at a low shutter speed (1/48th typically) BUT the motion blur itself is also what HELPS the perception of continuous motion and individually blurry photos PLAYED at 24 FPS turn into sharp images.  A lot of complex brain physiology going on there.

 

So it's contrary, but yes, technically, individually there is less resolution recorded by the system, BUT the images are subjected to extreme enlargement and scrutiny, so any optical imperfections tend to show up real quick.

 

Here's a really interesting take on resolution as it relates to cinema.

http://yedlin.net/ResDemo/ResDemoPt1.html

 

 

Agree. It is very interesting because the Thalia line shows that the S lenses weren’t completely ignored. When the discussion is that Thalia gives a “softer” look, it makes me think that increasing the Megapixels may not work as well as we’d want with s lenses (the AF precision being another obvious limitation). Still, S2 (2009), 006 (2012), 007 (2015). So this year is still on schedule.

 

That said, I think Leica benefits from having fans of the system. They can push the S 007 down in price (S-E 007) to 8K and then launch a S 008.

 

 

 

I haven't shot Thalia, but I have shot the Summicron C and Summilux C lenses.  In discussion with the people I know at Sonder who actually make the Leica cinema lenses, I was told the Thalia are very much based on the current Leica S lenses. You only have to compare the focal lengths offered and their apertures (we cinematographers rate lenses in T stops not F stops but they're nearly the same)

http://cw-sonderoptic.com/leica-thalia/#learn-more-anchor

 

Remember too that Leica are very new to the motion imaging business as a brand.  For many years the only Leica's shooting moves were MAYBE Adapted R lenses.  Panavision, long considered the very best of optics and design in movie making have in the past used many optical elements MADE by Leica Elcan Canada to Panavision design who then assembled their own unique and special lenses. These are known as the Panavision PRIMO https://www.panavision.com/products/primo%C2%AE-prime-lenses-0

 

For a long time, Panavision was a "leica" like image, with all the properties of Leica lenses we attribute to Leica, but made and designed by Panavision, sometimes using optical components made by Leica Elcan.

 

Zeiss, who also make a lot of cinema lenses (like the eye waveringly expensive master primes https://www.zeiss.com/camera-lenses/us/cinematography/products/master-prime-lenses.html) tend to be considered by some to be "too sharp" or really perhaps, too contrasty, too perfect.  Nevertheless, most consider Zeiss Master Primes to be one of the best choices in terms of optics and resolution.

 

In the marketing speak to CINEMATOGRAPHERS by Sonder to those who may not have a history of understanding of Leica lenses they use language like "analogue feel" to differentiate themselves from other players.  I don't think this really means "soft"

 

Also, from what I understand, those Sony sensors aren't ever going to make good full sensor video because the integration time is to slow (bad rolling shutter)

 

I would prefer and hope for a X1D like body next with a mirror-less mentality, but with the same mount and FFD.  EVF is very fine by me and is much better than chimping on a screen.  That requires you to take a picture in the first place.  Exposure tools are so good now in EVF's you can nail the exposure and WB from the first shot.

 

JB

Edited by JohnBrawley
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@JB, that is a really insightful comment. Yes, they actually say that they took the formulas for the S line and then made modifications to element size and various internal baffles etc to make them Cine-Housed lenses.

 

I suppose what we call increased tonality in stills is what they call increased analog or softness to the image. I imagine they still projector test every one of those Thalia lenses before they go out. The Thalia seem to be cheaper than the Summilux-C which is somewhat surprising but maybe they are looking to sell more of them or the development costs were lower?

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If a new S is indeed on the way I can’t see Leica releasing a higher MP sensor SL beforehand as it would just undermine the new S.

So is the second coming of the Messiah.  Leica seems all to busy with its other minor camera projects to care to improve the S system.  We can all remember when it was just the Leica and the Leicafex.  Now it seems like every time you turn around Leica has new camera.  I have been thinking seriously of moving to the Hasselblad system.  They at least seem to care about their customers and fans.  They even have a 400mp camera, of course, it takes 4 shots to get 400mp, but it is a start and when your not trying to shoot 400mp it is a 100mp back.  And least they believe in real telephoto photography. Unlike Leica that has the gall to call the 180 the ultimate telephoto when it may be only equivalent to a 135mm lens on a 35mm camera system..  Oh well enough said.

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 tllabron,

 

FYI, Sinar (which is a part of Leica) has been selling multishot backs since the dawn of the current century. These types of backs have very little utility outside of high-end product/studio photography, which is probably why you weren't aware of them.

 

Hasselblad offers very good products, and I've been a customer for a very long time. I think you will find that what they gain in megapixels, they lose in speed and portability compared to the S. It's a matter of personal preference.

 

There are several long-lens options for the S, including some with autofocus (using the H adapter or the Contax adapter). I use a Mamiya APO 200/2.8 (with matching 2x converter) with good results, but it hardly ever comes out of the bag. Quite frankly, if ultra-telephoto AF was important to me, I would use Canon or Nikon.

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I’d heard the same, but with 45x30 sensor - the current size.

That's the one. TF I'm getting rid of mine........

I really thought the new S was going to be a X1D look a like small compact and the dogs bollocks........ disappointed

Glad I got the M10

 

Neil

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That's the one. TF I'm getting rid of mine........

I really thought the new S was going to be a X1D look a like small compact and the dogs bollocks........ disappointed

Glad I got the M10

 

Neil

But the M10 doesn't have 60+ mp, or do you have a special edition version...?

 

Looking forward to the 008!!

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But the M10 doesn't have 60+ mp, or do you have a special edition version...?

 

Looking forward to the 008!!

everything I have is special......special

Neil

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everything I have is special......special

Neil

Exactly. Which is why we’ve learned not to listen to proclamations like you’ll never go back to crappy 35mm, or that you were done with the M.

 

And so I’ll ignore this supposed disappointment over the still non-existent S008. If it arrives, there’s a good chance you’ll find it to be special.

 

Jeff

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I’d heard the same, but with 45x30 sensor - the current size.

I don’t know about the rumours but Peter Karbe has previously stated in an interview that 45x30 is the maximum physical dimension for the sensor in an S body. He did indicate then that the lenses could potentially outresolve the next generation of sensors too

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Exactly. Which is why we’ve learned not to listen to proclamations like you’ll never go back to crappy 35mm, or that you were done with the M.

 

And so I’ll ignore this supposed disappointment over the still non-existent S008. If it arrives, there’s a good chance you’ll find it to be special.

 

Jeff

 

Well seeing as you are a little weekling like me you won't be interested in the new S008 as it is the same size and body shape as my Soo7...........the 64 megabyte sensor is 36 MP smaller than my current MF camera so I really dont see the point in me getting one but hay you never know.....stranger things have happened 

The crappy 35mm is heading out this afternoon into the deepest darkest backstreets of KL where I hope to shoot some street life.

 

Oh and lastly if not lately I still have a huge collection of M lenses that were just hanging out in my wet box waiting for me to fall in love with a M again...........we will see this afternoon if that is going to be a short or long romance

 

Neil

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The S008 is still vaporware. I wouldn’t trust any reports given the track record. But, if and when it materializes, I’d be quite surprised if the only change is MP. Leica always tweaks something, even for the M, which is locked into its legacy form factor.

 

I’m more interested in the next SL (or X2D) and an extended lens roadmap, so it is mostly for this reason that I hope the S008 either shows up soon or dies, as it likely constrains SL progress.

 

Enjoy the M10. It’s a sweet little machine. And a different shooting experience.

 

Jeff

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