Buying a budget M3 vs. an "overhauled" M3

[howlback]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I am in Los Angeles. Steve's Camera in Culver City, CA just diagnosed a broken shutter stop on M3 I purchased from eBay. I returned the camera but I am apprehensive about where/how I should go about purchasing now. Steve mentioned its generally good to love for higher serial numbers and cameras that look like that haven't been too abused. I'm lucky to have a good tech close by to look over anything I purchase but I'm wondering if it's just worth buying something that's already been CLA'd. On the other hand, I've also seen ads for cameras that have been "overhauled." From what I can gather It seems like some of the work performed is cosmetic. Will that hurt the value of the camera? (i.e. vulcanite replacement, etc.) Just looking for some advice...

[Martin B]

I bought my earlier SN based M3 (double stroke from 1957) from a friend of mine who kept it for years unused in his basement and which originally was purchased by his father. The camera looked fairly mint from outside with clear viewfinder. He left me the camera for a few weeks to make sure it was still in good working condition, and I shot two films without seeing any issues. I bought the camera for a decent deal, and surely directly afterwards when adding another film the shutter froze and couldn't be reset. I had to send the camera in for repair and CLA - Leica in NJ didn't even reply to my email inquiry if they would still fix the M3, so I sent it to a third party repair service which turned out to be an excellent choice. Got my camera back in a much better condition than before, and it is working like new again. 

 

The way I understand it is that the M3 can nearly always be fixed due to its well built mechanical features. In the worst case parts need to be replaced which will increase repair cost. If you get a good deal for an older SN based M3, simply calculate in $200-300 for CLA after you bought it and assuming it wasn't done before already. I would be cautious with an already broken M3 if the deal for it isn't so good that you might have it repaired after the purchase for the money you saved by purchasing it. Overhauled and/or CLA'd M3 cameras should be okay.

 

Regarding SN, there are three main categories of M3s out there - the early ones with double stroke, then later models with single stroke lever, and a transitional category which seems to be more of relevance for collectors. In my case I was given the unexpected choice of the double stroke M3, and I have to say I really like it even I always used single stroke on my M6 and M7 before. It is something different, a bit more vintage. Overall it depends in which general condition the M3 camera is you intend to buy - given the age of all M3s, they likely will sooner or later have a mechanical issue which might have been already taken care of or which still needs to be done with a simple CLA. 

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Ko.Fe.]

I can't comment on cameras for holding value, due to my use of them as tools for image taking. Cheap tools are not serviceable. Leica is not cheap and it is made to be serviceable. To me M3 with missing vulcanite and after CLA by D.A.G., YE and so on would be just fine. 

Anyway... I suggest to buy user Leica. From actual user. 

[Sjauch]

I'd be happier getting a CLA done on a camera I got for a bit lower price rather than relying on a seller saying one was done. This way I know the work was actually done by someone I trust and any issues the camera might have. 

[howlback]

I bought a great looking, highly praised (from the owner) M3 SS for $750 from a user. I had it in my hands for about two seconds before the shutter locked due to the broken shutter stop. The owner was shocked (though he could have been well aware of the situation before hand). It would have cost $450 to replace the stop + the shutter speeds were super slow 1/1000=1/500, 1/500=1/250, etc. I didn't get a quote for the CLA but I have a feeling it would have cost what I paid for the camera just to give it a clean bill of health. Also, I just got a reply back from well known used Leica dealer. Apparently, "overhauled" means clean/lube/adjust shutter and gears as well as clean the finder.

[Ko.Fe.]

M3 for 750$ is not highly, but regularly priced, IMO. For working as is or CLA'd few years ago camera. 

 

 

The user means camera is in use and it is not going to broke in two seconds. And it will be CLA'd if needed, to be in use. CLA'd by some known name and bill of service provided.

 

Camera dealers are often getting unknown to them camera as trade in and putting them straight and right away on sale with added business expense. Buying from dealer only benefit is if you'll get it with warranty and it breaks. 

 

The one dealer who might sell cameras after CLA, I'm aware of is Youxin Ye (his own CLA).

 

CLA might include cleaning, lubrication, adjustment or might include curtains, seals, gears replacement as well. Because if Leica is looked after and in use it worn gradually. And because after CLA Leica meant to be in use for five or so years. During CLA it is visible what needs to be replaced to make camera in use for next five years. 

 

Your experience in particular seems to be dealing with dodgy guy. I have seen on forums how Leica cameras were vandalized by cheap owners, who are opening them and playing with screws instead of paying 300$ for CLA. As result cameras are malfunction and their next step is to get rid of it. Slow speeds and getting shutter locked is indication of screw play.  

This is why I recommend to buy it from the user. Users are not doing it with their cameras. It is easier to find real user as someone who is well present on forum, has good and multiple feedback on sales as well.

 

If buying locally and camera is claimed to be in use, ask to bring it with recent prints. Proud owner will be happy to bring them. Dodgy guy will have no prints, but stories. 

[howlback]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Copy that

[friedeye]

I've purchased 2 M3s (one for my son), and one M2 on eBay - so I have some experience here.  All were from Japan.  One of my M3s, and my M2 were "overhauled" and I payed about $750 for each. The M3, turned out to be a solid buy - shutter speeds were all good, finder was clean and aligned, and operation smooth.  Not so with the M2. Shutter speeds were OK but it felt stiff and needed a CLA.

 

My most successful purchase was my first M3. It's a SS, and had the vulcanite ripping off, a messily repaired hole in the curtain, iffy shutter speeds - but the rest of the body and finder looked clean.  So a pretty ugly camera that needed a CLA. Bought it for $500.  Sent it to Youxin Ye, and $270 dollars later, it had new curtains, new covering, dead on shutter speeds, bright finder, and wound like butter.  Virtually a new camera for about $800. Youxin also CLA'd my M2 with equal success.

 

My advice: try to find a camera that hasn't been abused, but is ugly - not an "overhauled", marked up camera that has been cosmetically gussied up.  You may have to look awhile, but they pop up from time to time for 5-600 dollars.  Know that you'll have to pack it right back up and send it to Youxin, or Sherry or DAG and put in an extra 300 dollars for the CLA and recovering.  But... in the end, you'll know exactly what has been done to your camera, and have an instrument that should last you a lifetime.

 

Added note:  I live in LA and have used the various camera servicing places there.  In my experience, you will do much better with Youxin Ye. (Sherry and DAG are also highly recommended - I just haven't used them personally). 'Nuff said.

 

Good Luck - it's actually kind of fun to turn an ugly duckling into a swan.

[TomB_tx]

Indeed. I got a 1955 DS M3 that had been stashed in a hot Texas attic for years. Shutter was really messed up with a broken ribbon and bad curtain. Youxin replaced the curtain during a CLA, and it turned out better than an "excellent" 1961 SS from a well known dealer. However, I picked up a "bargain" M2 that was missing a chip of vulcanite on the rear door, that is otherwise very nice. I was going to patch the back door, but the vulcanite was quite loose. I got a replacement rear door skin from DAG that matched very well, so now I prefer the M2 to both M3s, as I use 35 quite a bit.

[howlback]

Okay, I'm wondering if I should go through with this purchase. Owner wants $1450 for an M3 SS w/ 50 Cron DR. This is my ideal set up and I have never seen it priced so low (craigslist). The owner has agreed to do the transaction through PayPal (legit not a "gift" transaction). He claims it was CLA'd a few years ago before he bought it (by YYE). He also claims he's only shot three rolls of film through it. I asked him for scans and he stalled but finally sent me the ones I've attached below. How do I make sure I'm not getting ripped out when I get the camera in my hands?

 

http://i.imgur.com/5GsRAI2.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/9aXUpYH

http://i.imgur.com/eFNSA2W

http://i.imgur.com/ms7k8MX

http://i.imgur.com/FRQpwOW

http://i.imgur.com/gAowSm4

http://i.imgur.com/BfsgsGw

http://i.imgur.com/JVXNslt

http://i.imgur.com/XNp0oNc

 

...I couldn't get the pictures to load on the forum, sorry.

Edited August 28, 2017 by howlback

[Ko.Fe.]

It is missing fancy film indicator on ISO selector. But it is not affecting pictures taking. I almost missed mine indicator once, it is hold by the glue. And already missed one of the flash terminals (it was already missed on purchase). Those are sold on-line.

 

With PayPal paid for goodies, you are covered by PayPal. And it doesn't looks like scam or very low priced deal. 650$ for camera in this condition and rest for the lens. And no eBay fees to pay for seller. It is reasonable price, IMO, not low. And I think, few years ago will translate to five.

[howlback]

It is missing fancy film indicator on ISO selector. But it is not affecting pictures taking. I almost missed mine indicator once, it is hold by the glue. And already missed one of the flash terminals (it was already missed on purchase). Those are sold on-line.

 

With PayPal paid for goodies, you are covered by PayPal. And it doesn't looks like scam or very low priced deal. 650$ for camera in this condition and rest for the lens. And no eBay fees to pay for seller. It is reasonable price, IMO, not low. And I think, few years ago will translate to five.

 

 

Thanks for the quick response.

[plaidshirts]

I've purchased an M2, an M3 and an M4 on eBay rather successfully I think. The key is to match what you see cosmetically with the seller's history and feedback to an appropriate price. The M3 was bought from a non-user selling an inheritance. I wound up getting a bunch of accessories with it. The M2 was from a well known ebay camera shop and the M4 from overseas (France - the seller was a professional photog). I must say, these 50+ year old machines are marvelously put together and sturdy as hell. Use common sense and trust your instincts. I second the recommendation for Youxin Ye. He is fast and probably the most economical option here in the US for CLA's.

[michaelm3]

I'm in the decision between two cameras M3 (it's said to been overhauld by a former Leica employee, whatever that means) at 570€ and an M4 that has definitly seen original customer service by Leica Wetzlar 850€. I could test the M4 yesterday and I have to say that I've never seen sth operate smoother than this. Clear finder and the curtain like new. I don't kmow when it was serviced but it seems not to be used since then..it feels great!!

Is 850€ a regulär price in mint minus condition?

 

Michael

[Martin B]

I'm in the decision between two cameras M3 (it's said to been overhauld by a former Leica employee, whatever that means) at 570€ and an M4 that has definitly seen original customer service by Leica Wetzlar 850€. I could test the M4 yesterday and I have to say that I've never seen sth operate smoother than this. Clear finder and the curtain like new. I don't kmow when it was serviced but it seems not to be used since then..it feels great!!

Is 850€ a regulär price in mint minus condition?

 

Michael

 

I see used M4s in good condition going often for quite a bit more in the used market!

[michaelm3]

Thanks for the information Martin..

 

It's got to be her!!

Michael

Edited September 1, 2017 by michaelm3

[luisrq]

In my opinion a VF CLA don't solves perfectly the focusing contrast, because the Canadian balsam is a biodegradable component, I've bought a completely refurbished M3 by Malcolm Taylor and this one was outstanding, even so the clarity and contrast of the VF of my MP, is far superior, still better with the 1.25x

[a.noctilux]

As I love M3         

as other Ms that I use,

now these old workhorses would not hold reliability of newer Ms.

 

I do have one M3 'blind' (black VF as we know would come one day sooner or later) needing repair that I even don't bother to send for repair to sell it, other parts may need repair, if possible.

Another M4 with breaking shutter (working for many years before that) same treatment, no repair/no selling.

As these hardworking Ms could be sold after repair, but I respect to-be-buyers not to upset them with non-reliable old Ms which served me well.