M10 colors oversaturated? -Merged thread-

[mdemeyer]

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Am I the only one who finds the colors from the M10 to be significantly over saturated with (especially) the M10 profile in Lightroom? Better with the Adobe profile but I still find myself backing off the Saturation by -15 to -25 to get anywhere near reality.

 

Michael

[mhicks]

Nope

I find them to be spot on.

 

Some have complained about too much contrast, warmth, etc., so it's not a surprise to hear re: saturation.

 

It's art, though, so all opinions should be taken as such.

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[01af]

Am I the only one ...?

No, you're not. The digital Leica M colours all are badly over-saturated indeed. The M9 was worst, the M (Typ 240) slightly better, and now the M10 slightly better again but still far from natural.

 

Besides the exaggerated saturation, there's also the reds too purplish and the blues also too purplish. And yes, the Camera Raw/Lightroom profile "LEICA M10" is much worse than "Adobe Standard".

[Tomek]

Am I the only one who finds the colors from the M10 to be significantly over saturated with (especially) the M10 profile in Lightroom?

Do you mean in jpeg format? Or raw dng? Lens profile or camera profile?

[jaapv]

If you don't like the colours you get now, just change your default settings. Colours are created in postprocessing, not by the camera. (Olaf, I know you have no problem getting the colours you want )

[mdemeyer]

Do you mean in jpeg format? Or raw dng? Lens profile or camera profile?

Processing with LR from DNG. Yes, I have made my own defaults that suit me better. I was just curious about other's experience in this regard since some others comment on the Forum about commonly increasing Saturation, which looks very cartoonish to me - although it can work for images that are conceived that way. I even find the various Leica samples to be more saturated than how I see real life.

 

Perhaps this had it's roots in my B&W dominated photography...

 

To each his/her own. Don't want to start a war. I'm happy with my defaults. :-)

[erl]

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Consider using another RAW processor.

Of course that involves a whole new learning process, but could be worth it.

I find M10 files processed in C1 to be fine, but I always hand tune anyway.

[pico]

Digital imaging default is rarely what any discriminating individual prefers.

You are in control of the outcome.

Accept or fail by your own standards which you decide in post-processing,

.

Edited August 6, 2017 by pico

[Al_OOF]

Every time I read a thread with "colors" topic I wonder "but which is the monitor they are using to judge ? Is it a large gamut monitor, is it calibrated or not?" It seems very important to know with which device the judgment is made, since an image can be very different. That said, in my opinion (on Lacie calibrated monitor), also preferring the Adobe profile I do not find the result so oversaturated, just that little, enjoyable, that characterizes Leica images compared to other brands.

Perhaps it would be better to say vivid than saturated.

[adan]

Discussing pictures without a picture for reference is worse than Plato's people in a cave trying to discuss the world based on the shadows they see (at least they were looking at something).

 

Here is an M10 picture with dead "zero" adjustments in Adobe Camera Raw (similar interface to LR). Leica's own "M10 Embedded" calibration profile, late afternoon light, 90 Summarit lens.

 

Looks to me exactly like what I would get in the same setting from the sine qua non of color photography for the last 70 years - a well-exposed Kodachrome/Ektachrome slide. It also happens to be what I saw through the viewfinder, and expected to get.

 

(For my own work, I'd likely open up the shadows a bit, but for an objective look at what the M10 produces by itself and "base" processing, I skipped that step.)

 

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I would say that with the M10 and faulty (over) exposure (which is to say - the default meter without a little minus exp. comp), red-containing colors (magenta through yellows) can run a bit hot and blow the red channel to 255, reducing detail. But that is an exposure issue, not saturation as such.

[@ndy_ellis]

Also on colours I noticed on an LHSA video tip that it was a useful quick hack on colour adjustment and compensation to use LR's vibrancy slider rather than saturation.  The experience was that skin tones were less affected.  

[mdemeyer]

Actually I find skin tones to be perhaps most in need of desaturation. Calibrated monitor, etc. The image above is not a useful test for me since it's already shot in evening light of unknown color. It's an appealing warm look, but not a useful image for me to judge color saturation.

 

My comment is based on many images and, mostly, on skin tones shot in daylight and color balanced with a proper gray card. Not an over-exposure issue.

 

I'll make some controlled shots and post them next weekend for further comment.

[jaapv]

First make a decent camera profile using a ColorcheckerPassport.

The way you propose to do it will be a test of your postprocessing program and raw converter, not of the camera.

[MJ_2003]

First make a decent camera profile using a ColorcheckerPassport.

The way you propose to do it will be a test of your postprocessing program and raw converter, not of the camera.

 

I did that and found the profile to be so close to the M10 profile I have just stuck with that. On a calibrated monitor the M10 profile looks fine to me but everyone's tastes are different so I guess I am lucky that I don't have to do too much tweaking to get what I like.

[mdemeyer]

First make a decent camera profile using a ColorcheckerPassport.

The way you propose to do it will be a test of your postprocessing program and raw converter, not of the camera.

Have made many profiles with Color Checker, so well versed in that process. My specific original comment/question was specifically on the standard M10 profile as used in LR. Not what is possible with other custom profiles. So it was a question on other's opinion on that specific system, not the M10 in and of itself.

 

In any case, since this thread seems to have departed from my original question, I'll drop off. Thanks for those who took the time to respond.

[jaapv]

Have made many profiles with Color Checker, so well versed in that process. My specific original comment/question was specifically on the standard M10 profile as used in LR. Not what is possible with other custom profiles. So it was a question on other's opinion on that specific system, not the M10 in and of itself.

 

In any case, since this thread seems to have departed from my original question, I'll drop off. Thanks for those who took the time to respond.

That begs the question: why use a profile you don't like if you have no problem making a better one?

[mdemeyer]

As I said, I use Adobe Standard with -20 Saturation as my default and I like it. No need to make a custom one.

 

I was just curious to hear of other's experiences. Simple as that.

 

Done.

[elmars]

As Olaf said: The colors of the M10 with the Adobe Standard profile are good, far better than the colors of the M9/M240. But they could be better, especially the skin tones, and they are a bit oversaturated. Desaturation is like a shot gun. It works for much purposes, but it seems not the best way to me. Here are my adjustments in the camera profile menu for the Adobe Standard profile.

 

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Olaf has similar adjustments. In addition to them I sometimes desaturate green.

 

Elmar

[mdemeyer]

Elmar,

 

Very informative response. Exactly the kind I was hoping for. I will try this.

 

Thank you,

 

Michael

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[adli]

Have been following this thread. In addition to the color calibration I am curious on wheter M10 owners use the default import settings for contrast, black, white,  clarity and vibration, or if you have twaked the import settings for these values. Anyone who have their own improt settings they want to share?