frame-it Posted November 3, 2017 Share #261 Posted November 3, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) probably APS-C, 24MP, built in EVF..a mix of Xvario and TL. The key question, IMO, is whether it is APS-C or full frame. If full frame, then it will set the cat among the pigeons among M owners, and will be seen as the new future of Leica. If APS-C, then it will cause less of a stir and will be less disruptive: a compact Leica for those who can't live with an add-on EVF on the TL2. Das Wesentliche and Oskar's Legacy makes me think full frame, M-shape and a new beginning. "CL", by analogy with it's forerunner, makes me think APS-C but more capable and more traditional than the TL2. I tend towards the former at the moment. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 3, 2017 Posted November 3, 2017 Hi frame-it, Take a look here Code Name "Clooney". I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
IkarusJohn Posted November 3, 2017 Share #262 Posted November 3, 2017 The L in CLooney, surely suggests L mount. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
miro Posted November 4, 2017 Author Share #263 Posted November 4, 2017 The L in CLooney, surely suggests L mount. The CL suggests Compact Leica , and also a reference to the historical Leica CL , and also a reference to TL/SL mount . And finally , it may just be one good looking camera . Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted November 4, 2017 Share #264 Posted November 4, 2017 (edited) The key question, IMO, is whether it is APS-C or full frame. If full frame, then it will set the cat among the pigeons among M owners, and will be seen as the new future of Leica. It's APS-C. You just answered your own question. Leica releases the M10 and a few months later releases another camera that cannibalises M sales, has many M owners dump their cameras, and sees new M10 sales drop precipitously. Right. Think "Leica is a business" not "what do Leica fanboys want." If APS-C, then it will cause less of a stir... Less of stir among M owners, yes, and hopefully enough of a stir in the market to warrant a big "Das Wesentliche" event. The only way an APS-C camera does that, IMO, is if it comes with lightening fast AF (acquisition time of somewhere in the range of 0.03 to 0.05 seconds depending on the lens), continuous shooting with full AF tracking, no blackout EVF (not sure about this one). Das Wesentliche and Oskar's Legacy makes me think full frame, M-shape and a new beginning. "CL", by analogy with it's forerunner, makes me think APS-C but more capable and more traditional than the TL2. I tend towards the former at the moment. You will be disappointed, I'm afraid. Edited November 4, 2017 by Chaemono Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted November 4, 2017 Share #265 Posted November 4, 2017 (edited) ........... You will be disappointed, I'm afraid. Unlikely - I have no interest in this either way except as an observer and amateur forecaster of the future. Edited November 4, 2017 by LocalHero1953 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted November 4, 2017 Share #266 Posted November 4, 2017 The L in CLooney, surely suggests L mount. Yes, surely a given. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted November 4, 2017 Share #267 Posted November 4, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) It's APS-C. You just answered your own question. Leica releases the M10 and a few months later releases another camera that cannibalises M sales, has many M owners dump their cameras, and sees new M10 sales drop precipitously. Right. Think "Leica is a business" not "what do Leica fanboys want." Interesting consideration. It would cut M sales for sure, but by replacing them with sales of the new body, which might be seen as having a better long term future than the M, and potentially a bigger market. The M series will always have a niche, but at some stage Leica has to decide if it wants to stay in that niche, or take the risk of breaking out. As I say, I have no particular interest which way Leica jumps, as long as it survives and thrives as a producer of top class interesting cameras and lenses. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted November 4, 2017 Share #268 Posted November 4, 2017 All this speculation … but 'Que sera sera'. The only real certainty is the usual tsunami of comments from the armchair camera designers after the official announcement. dunk 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropo54 Posted November 4, 2017 Share #269 Posted November 4, 2017 All this speculation … but 'Que sera sera'. The only real certainty is the usual tsunami of comments from the armchair camera designers after the official announcement. dunk "CL-ooney" = CL-ueless"? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted November 4, 2017 Share #270 Posted November 4, 2017 Interesting consideration. It would cut M sales for sure, but by replacing them with sales of the new body, which might be seen as having a better long term future than the M, and potentially a bigger market. They need to amortize the R&D on the M10 first. This ain't gonna happen if they start cutting into their own M10 sales a few months after introduction. It's called stupid business practice and would get the management fired immediately (by Blackstone and the other owner). @dunk - it's logical deduction based on all the information at hand. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted November 4, 2017 Share #271 Posted November 4, 2017 They need to amortize the R&D on the M10 first. This ain't gonna happen if they start cutting into their own M10 sales a few months after introduction. It's called stupid business practice and would get the management fired immediately (by Blackstone and the other owner). @dunk - it's logical deduction based on all the information at hand. So when is the best time in the three year M cycle to introduce a competitor? A year after launch, like now? In another year's time, or just before a new M is launched? I suspect Leica has a longer term strategy than one, two or three year cycles - but of course I have no more insight to Leica's planning practice than anyone else. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted November 4, 2017 Share #272 Posted November 4, 2017 finally it might be the same TL2 but with built in EVF for 4000USD And finally , it may just be one good looking camera . Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted November 4, 2017 Share #273 Posted November 4, 2017 So when is the best time in the three year M cycle to introduce a competitor? A year after launch, like now? In another year's time, or just before a new M is launched? I suspect Leica has a longer term strategy than one, two or three year cycles - but of course I have no more insight to Leica's planning practice than anyone else. Ok, let me try it a different way. Blackstone is a financial investor. They are looking to exit and want to get more money out than what they put in. How do they do this? By increasing the valuation of the company. How does one increase the valuation of a company? By growing sales and margins. How does one grow sales and margin when the market isn't growing much? By introducing products that grow the TAM (total addressable market) and increase the SOW (share of wallet) with existing customers. Margins can increase through operating leverage (ie., scale). Growing the TAM implies not cannibalizing your own sales, ESPECIALLY not of a product that was just introduced. The amortization of capitalized R&D usually happens over the lifetime of the product which in this case, I would guess, is when a new M is introduced. So lets say roughly four years, maybe a bit longer with due to the Monochrome version. Introducing a product that cannibalizes M10 sales a few months after introduction not only shrinks sales but also lowers margins which leads to a lower valuation of the company. Blackstone ain't gonna like this. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted November 4, 2017 Share #274 Posted November 4, 2017 Ok, let me try it a different way. .................. That's what I like about this forum - it's a great place to learn best business practice. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einst_Stein Posted November 4, 2017 Share #275 Posted November 4, 2017 Leica's future relies on a profitable and sustainable product line of fully Autoable interchangable (zoom) lens system. Something to address the market of combonation of Sony fujifilm. At the dame time to maintain a strong M line. L mount system is the answer. leica is on its course to perfect it. Regardless the currently successful SL + TL, Leica can maximize the success by introducing TL with BIEVF (albeit slightly larger body) or SL with smaller body (albeit less capable). I think CL form factor could be the answer for both. Imagine a CL line with a FF variation and a HF variation? The HF variation should have higher priority. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreasAM Posted November 4, 2017 Share #276 Posted November 4, 2017 finally it might be the same TL2 but with built in EVF for 4000USD I would say never tamper with an almost perfect design, it results in a compromise. When there are new specs or big components to add, start afresh, make it perfect Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted November 4, 2017 Share #277 Posted November 4, 2017 finally it might be the same TL2 but with built in EVF for 4000USDCan you imagine that? That would have the DSLR competition laugh all the way to the bank...But, no, it won’t be that, I’m afraid (price point will be much lower, too, but above the TL2). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS Posted November 4, 2017 Share #278 Posted November 4, 2017 It doesn't make sense to me that Leica would introduce something like the TL2 only 3 months after introducing the TL2............that would be just wrong and subject to a pissed off letter to Mr leica, unless of course they offer a tradein program for anyone who bought the TL2 say less than 3 months ago Neil Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einst_Stein Posted November 4, 2017 Share #279 Posted November 4, 2017 Perhaps the price diffetence between TL2 and CL will make a perfect sense. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted November 4, 2017 Share #280 Posted November 4, 2017 (edited) that 18mm f2.8..looks exactly like the panasonic 20mm f1.7....but NO...leica will never release a superfast prime pancake lens.. same goes with this new camera..am sure it will be underpowered in some way or the other so as not to infringe on sales of other products as you mentioned above Can you imagine that? That would have the DSLR competition laugh all the way to the bank...But, no, it won’t be that, I’m afraid (price point will be much lower, too, but above the TL2). Edited November 4, 2017 by frame-it Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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