schattenundlicht Posted August 1, 2017 Share #1 Posted August 1, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Could anybody advise me on the most appropriate filter factor to calculate exposure adjustment for the Leitz Yellow 1 filter in conjunction with panchromatic b/w films (they seem to differ from the ones given for orthochromatic films)? I find conflicting information on the web and do not have access to any original brochures. Some sites seem to mix up filter factor with number of f-stops. (I did not find a pertinent answer through forum search. If I missed something obvious, please be so kind to point me towards it). I am aware that effective filter factor will depend on light temperature and motif but I would appreciate correct nominal values. Of course, exposure latitude of a HP5, for example, will easily bridge minor missettings but I would like to start right ;-) Kind regards Mathias Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 1, 2017 Posted August 1, 2017 Hi schattenundlicht, Take a look here FIGRO. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
willeica Posted August 1, 2017 Share #2 Posted August 1, 2017 The FIGRO ( I think I have one somewhere, but have not used it) is classified by Laney as as a light No 1 filter. In the Leica III manual for July 1935 there are ranges of filter factors for yellow no 1 filters given for various panchromatic films eg Agfa Leica Superpan is 1.3 to 1.8, Agfa Leica Fino Pan is 1.5 to 2.0 and Agfa Leica Isopan is 1.9 to 2.0. Kodak Leica Panatomic is 1.3 to 1.8. The range largely appears to be between 1 and 2. The manual does say that there are various factors which may affect the time of the exposure eg composition of the light, variations in the emulsion and mode of development. I suggest that you experiment with various factors between 1 and 2 for HP5 or whatever film you are going to use. I can send you the pages from the manual by PM, but I am not sure that this will enable you avoid a bit of trial and error to get exactly what you want. William 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted August 1, 2017 Share #3 Posted August 1, 2017 Hello Mathias, You should be able to measure the factor for the filter with any hand held or behind the lens meter. Generally a Leitz Yellow 1 has a filter factor of 2X That is: With a film of ISO 100 the speed to use with a separate hand held meter is 100/2 = 50 If the camera has a behind the lens meter then simply put the filter on the lens & leave the ISO set at 100 The filter factor is for a separate hand held meter. Not for use with a behind the lens meter. Problems come about sometimes when people have red filters & are using a CdS meter. Whether hand held or behind the lens. With a red filter it is better to measure the scene with no filter & then put the filter on the camera & adjust the settings as a factor of the filters stated factor. Because the response of a CdS cell is not always accurate when measuring thru a red filter. At 1 time Leitz made 4 yellow filters which were numbered: 0, 1, 2, 3 Best Regards, Michael 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
schattenundlicht Posted August 2, 2017 Author Share #4 Posted August 2, 2017 (edited) Dear Michael and William, thank you very much for your helpful replies! Since it is an A36 Filter for LTM, It fits none of the lenses for my TTL cameras to measure the filter. The black attachment ring will make measurements unreliable when holding it in front of a larger lens. My old handheld-meter is no longer functional. While I sometimes check my sunny sixteen with an iPhone App, I am not sure how trustworthy it is with colored light and minute differences - but I will try a reading with that anyway. Thank you for confirming filter factor = 1.5 - 2 as a reasonable starting point for gaining field experience. Actually this is what I presumed (from other vendor's standard yellow filter data) for the first test roll of film which currently awaits development. However I was confused by the different Leitz yellow filter designations, for which I could not find data. Since other vendors sometimes give filter factor explicity engraved on the filter rim, I was, at first, bewildered by the impropable "1" on the FIGRO ;-) The CdS detail with regard to red light is interesting, indeed. @William: Out of technical and historic curiousity, I would appreciate an excerpt from the manual via PM, although, as you rightfully pointed out, for practical reasons it will not obviate trial and experimentation on my side. Thanks again, both of you, Mathias Edited August 2, 2017 by schattenundlicht Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted August 12, 2017 Share #5 Posted August 12, 2017 I am using a Leica #1 series 5.5 yellow filter on the Summicron 40-C with Fomapan 200 ISO B&W panchromatic film on my Leica CL. I have set the meter on the CL to 100 ISO and that seems to work just fine, so as others above have said, a factor of -1EV or halving the base ISO of your film would be correct. The exposure latitude of modern B&W film seems so wide, I think half an EV either way will make little to no difference. Wilson 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
schattenundlicht Posted August 12, 2017 Author Share #6 Posted August 12, 2017 I am using a Leica #1 series 5.5 yellow filter on the Summicron 40-C with Fomapan 200 ISO B&W panchromatic film on my Leica CL. I have set the meter on the CL to 100 ISO and that seems to work just fine, so as others above have said, a factor of -1EV or halving the base ISO of your film would be correct. The exposure latitude of modern B&W film seems so wide, I think half an EV either way will make little to no difference. Wilson Thank you very much for confirming our theoretical musings from the field ! After this weekend, I will have developed my first roll of film from my II(D) with the #1 FIGRO. Mathias Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted August 12, 2017 Share #7 Posted August 12, 2017 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) I am using a Leica #1 series 5.5 yellow filter on the Summicron 40-C with Fomapan 200 ISO B&W panchromatic film on my Leica CL. I have set the meter on the CL to 100 ISO and that seems to work just fine, so as others above have said, a factor of -1EV or halving the base ISO of your film would be correct. The exposure latitude of modern B&W film seems so wide, I think half an EV either way will make little to no difference. Wilson Hello Wilson, 1 reason for having a behind the lens meter is that it measures the light coming thru the lens & THRU THE FILTER so that you do not have to compensate when using filters. Except for some types of red filters when using either a behind the lens meter or a separate hand held meter that uses a CdS cell for measuring. Like a CL does. 1 reason that your exposures might be just fine is that many negative films, both black & white and color, are given an ISO rating on the box that is within tolerances of exposure but are sometimes under exposed by 1 stop in terms of equalized exposure in terms of balancing highlight detail & shadow detail. Holding the film cartridge with the little "nubbin" to the left: Could you tell us what is in the 2 sets of 6 boxes, first top row & then bottom row, on the film cartridge itself? Example: White/Silver - White/Silver - White/Silver - Black - White/Silver - White/Silver Over: W - B - B - W - W - W Best Regards, Michael Edited August 12, 2017 by Michael Geschlecht 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted August 12, 2017 Share #8 Posted August 12, 2017 Michael, I have not been using the built in meter on the CL when it had Fomapan 200 in it, until two weeks ago but using a Voigtlander VC-2 instead hence the -1EV for the yellow filter. The CL's meter was misbehaving, which I have now tracked down to a dirty SR43 cell in the PX625 replacer. Sometimes the battery checker needle in the VF would swing into the correct position and sometimes only twitch. What gave me the clue was a 1EV difference between my new black VC-2 and my old silver one, both with new batteries. Cleaning the silver one's button cells made them read the same. I had had the wires to the battery compartment on the CL replaced last year and soldered on using Mundorf silver/gold/tin solder, so I knew it was not the usual CL fault of dry or corroded solder joints on the battery compartment. However, when I put the last but one roll of film in to the CL out in the field, I had changed the SR43 cell with one out of the leather button cell pouch in my camera bag. I had put it in without cleaning it. I should know better. Now I am back to the internal meter after cleaning the battery and I also pulled up the negative contact in the PX625 replacer, so it is in firmer contact with the button cell. I would not change its ISO setting if I had a yellow filter on but I now have Ektar 100 in the camera, with just a skylight filter in any case. I checked after I cleaned the SR43 battery and fiddled with the contacts. My CL, the two VC-2's and my Weston Master V all now read the same. Wilson 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted August 12, 2017 Share #9 Posted August 12, 2017 (edited) Hello Wilson, Is that an SR 43 or an SR44 battery that you are using?It might still be interesting to see what the little patches read on the cartridge for the 200 speed film. Altho some film cartridges today come without them. I think that the Ektar will probably read: W - B - W - B - W - B. W - B - B - W - B - B "Nubbin" to the left, of course. Best Regards, Michael Edited August 12, 2017 by Michael Geschlecht 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted August 12, 2017 Share #10 Posted August 12, 2017 The "Leica Taschenbuch" publised by Horst Bredow Schule Berlin 1960 gives the following advise (translation by me): "We purposely don't give filter factors, since they are usually too long and may differ completely for different films. Best way: Try with your film material starting with normal shutter times and then add a 1/2 stop." This little pocketbook contains loads of numbers, formulas and other excessive details which nobody can keep in mind. When they say that they purposely avoid giving filter factors, I'd believe that they are right. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted August 12, 2017 Share #11 Posted August 12, 2017 Hello Wilson, Is that an SR 43 or an SR44 battery that you are using? It might still be interesting to see what the little patches read on the cartridge for the 200 speed film. Altho some film cartridges today come without them. I think that the Ektar will probably read: W - B - W - B - W - B. W - B - B - W - B - B "Nubbin" to the left, of course. Best Regards, Michael Michael, I can never remember which object takes SR44 and which SR43 so I always carry 4 of each with me in my camera bag in a home made leather cell carrier. Annoyingly I have left it behind in the UK, when I was back there for a week-end last month, so I have had to go and buy more button cells. However I am pretty sure my Small Battery Company PX625 replacer takes a 386 or SR43. I use PX625 replacers in my CL and Leicameter MR-4. I will look at a roll of Ektar and Fomapan 200 tomorrow and let you know. I thought everyone had given up on DX coding some years ago. I think the only camera I will have, on which DX would work (if DHL ever find what they have done with it) is the M7. DX coding can be a pain if you want to push or pull a film and it decides to override your manual setting. My Contax RX was prone to do that. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
schattenundlicht Posted August 13, 2017 Author Share #12 Posted August 13, 2017 (edited) The "Leica Taschenbuch" publised by Horst Bredow Schule Berlin 1960 gives the following advise (translation by me): "We purposely don't give filter factors, since they are usually too long and may differ completely for different films. Best way: Try with your film material starting with normal shutter times and then add a 1/2 stop." This little pocketbook contains loads of numbers, formulas and other excessive details which nobody can keep in mind. When they say that they purposely avoid giving filter factors, I'd believe that they are right. There seem to have been two camps on this matter. The 1960ies Leica Taschenbuch represents what I would call the "pragmatist/ experience" approach. On the other hand, representing a more "explicit/ nerdy" approach, the 1930ies Leica Camera manuals give a substantial table of filter factors for various filters, lighting conditions and film types (alas none of them still available today) that spans two pages. Kisselbach's Leica Buch even shows a graph of the spectral curves of different Leitz filters. Perhaps, in part this difference in attitude is due to a shift in importance of classic b&w photography. Propably, in the early days of popularization of 135 photography, filters, stemming from the classic era of silver halide photography, were deemed a more important subject than in later days, that were dominated by glitzy color photography. I am glad that some of the old documents survived (although more and more difficult to obtain), even if they sometimes do not massively impact on my day to day photography (romanticism again, I guess). Mathias Edited August 13, 2017 by schattenundlicht Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted August 13, 2017 Share #13 Posted August 13, 2017 Michael, The Kodak Ektar 100 still has DX coding showing on one row 10101 for 100 ISO and on the second row 10011 for 36 exposure and +3/-1 exposure tolerance. The Fomapan 200 has no DX coding. Wilson Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/275280-figro/?do=findComment&comment=3335883'>More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted August 13, 2017 Share #14 Posted August 13, 2017 Here are some more thoughts on Leica Filter Factors from Andrew Matheson's "The Leica Way". D is for Daylight, A for Artificial: Pan for Panchromatic Film, Pan Red for extended red sensitive Panchromatic file (e.g. Rollei 400S or Ilford XP2). To correct what I said earlier. I thought the S.5.5 filter I was using on my Summicron 40C was a #1 Leitz yellow. I was wrong, as on checking, it was a #0. I got confused as I was thinking -1EV = #1. It is pretty stupid numbering, as the obvious (to me anyway) would be to number them according to the daylight pan -EV correction factor, so for example a UV filter becomes a #0, a pale yellow a #1, etc. Wilson Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/275280-figro/?do=findComment&comment=3335889'>More sharing options...
willeica Posted August 13, 2017 Share #15 Posted August 13, 2017 Here is a page from from the III Manual from July 1935. You will see that, even then, Leica entered a lot of caveats about variable factors for filters. These factors included film type. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I suggest that a trial with the film of your choice is the only way of fully determining a filter factor without through the lens metering. William 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I suggest that a trial with the film of your choice is the only way of fully determining a filter factor without through the lens metering. William ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/275280-figro/?do=findComment&comment=3335931'>More sharing options...
UliWer Posted August 13, 2017 Share #16 Posted August 13, 2017 Trying a Figro with a 1:3.5/5cm Elmar ("red scale") at f 3.5 the M10 metering gives me for a certain object at 1/90 sec without filter and 1/60 sec with filter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted August 13, 2017 Share #17 Posted August 13, 2017 I was trying a similar exercise with my Leitz UTOOV mid to dark red filter for my 85mm Summarex, where you can see from the table I published above that a factor of 15 is suggested. My SL meter said -4 EV, which is a huge discrepancy. Either the tables are rubbish or modern TTL metering is under estimating the effect of a filter. Odd! Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted August 13, 2017 Share #18 Posted August 13, 2017 Trying a Figro with a 1:3.5/5cm Elmar ("red scale") at f 3.5 the M10 metering gives me for a certain object at 1/90 sec without filter and 1/60 sec with filter. The point that I was trying to make is that the filter factor varies with film type. Leica realised this as far back as 1935 and probably before that. Using the filter on a modern digital camera will only give an approximation. There is no substitute for testing with film. Make sure that you write down the details of the test shots in a notebook. William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted August 13, 2017 Share #19 Posted August 13, 2017 Michael, The Kodak Ektar 100 still has DX coding showing on one row 10101 for 100 ISO and on the second row 10011 for 36 exposure and +3/-1 exposure tolerance. The Fomapan 200 has no DX coding. Wilson Hello Wilson, There are actually 6 boxes in each row. The cartridge you displayed reads: W - B - W - B - W -B W - B - B - W - W - B The left most, next to the "nubbin",boxes are always W. This is because they are the common contacts. The cartridge reads: The actual ISO is 100. This is a 36 exposure roll. The exposure latitude is within "+" or "-" 1 stop. Best Regards, Michael 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted August 13, 2017 Share #20 Posted August 13, 2017 (edited) I was trying a similar exercise with my Leitz UTOOV mid to dark red filter for my 85mm Summarex, where you can see from the table I published above that a factor of 15 is suggested. My SL meter said -4 EV, which is a huge discrepancy. Either the tables are rubbish or modern TTL metering is under estimating the effect of a filter. Odd! Wilson Hello Wilson, An exposure factor of 15X is pretty much the same as an EV of -4. ISO 600/15 = 40 ISO 600/2 = 300/2 = 150/2 =75/2 = 37.5 = -4EV Best Regards, Michael Edited August 13, 2017 by Michael Geschlecht 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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