dkCambridgeshire Posted August 11, 2017 Share #21 Posted August 11, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Judging by observations regarding poor or non-existent focus peaking, plus the VISO anomaly and resultant recommendation not to use the VISO with the original firmware, the TL2 was not quite ready for launch … and those who have bought it ended up being additional beta testers. I'm not so pleased with the TL2 I bought but hopeful of the camera proving itself when teething problems have been resolved. dunk 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 Hi dkCambridgeshire, Take a look here So TL2 buyers, how pleased are you with your purchase?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
IkarusJohn Posted August 11, 2017 Share #22 Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) Judging by observations regarding poor or non-existent focus peaking, plus the VISO anomaly and resultant recommendation not to use the VISO with the original firmware, the TL2 was not quite ready for launch … and those who have bought it ended up being additional beta testers. I'm not so pleased with the TL2 I bought but hopeful of the camera proving itself when teething problems have been resolved. dunk I'm not unhappy at all. I bought the TL2 almost as soon as it was released; I don't have the 020 Viso, so I dodged a bullet; and I don't use focus peaking. It's worked perfectly for me. I have been a beta tester on products and firmware in the past, and my use of the TL2 has been nothing like that. I've rather enjoyed it ... Edited August 11, 2017 by IkarusJohn 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted August 11, 2017 Share #23 Posted August 11, 2017 There have not been that many problems with the T and TL prior to the TL2 … the problems lay with the Leica naysayers and critics who'd never used them but who insisted in indulging in their predictable anti-modern Leica I don't think that's entirely accurate, Dunk. Yes, I don't think you do yourself any favours with this talk of "naysayers", etc, Dunk. It's a bit tedious and does nothing to advance a discussion. I've bought far more Leica equipment than I care to admit (so consider myself a fully paid up fanboy) and considered buying a T more than once, especially when it was discounted by some dealers at £699. However, whenever I tried the camera out I just couldn't like it anything like enough to want to own it. Simply too slow and too fiddly to operate. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted August 11, 2017 Share #24 Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) Now I've had the TL2 a couple of days, I'm very happy with it. I didn't get the T - I found it too slow and not responsive enough. I don't get that feeling with the TL2. I bought it (with the small 23mm prime and the 60mm macro) mainly because of its small size and light weight, and because it provides a body for use in alternative scenarios with my existing M and SL lenses - just another member of the Leica ecosystem. For that reason, my expectations of it are confined to those particular scenarios where I will use it. Anyone getting this as their sole camera for a wide range of usage should consider it accordingly. AF with the 23mm is slower than the SL and its zooms, but good enough for my likely uses. (The 60mm is still on order). I haven't yet tried the TL2 with the SL zooms to see if this is a lens thing or a body thing. I've been testing it with spot or single point focus, whereas I'm most likely to use the 23 in social scenarios with multifield focusing, which is quicker. The 60 will be used with spot focusing when it comes. Once I got the general principles of the camera operation from the quick start sheet, I hardly used the documentation at all - I found it that intuitive to set up and use, from a basic knowledge of cameras plus a familiarity with smartphone icon-based interfaces. It was easier than the SL in that respect. The grouping of functions under logical headings makes the menu system easy to navigate and shallow. On the other hand, the manual appears to be worse than some of Leica's other offerings: full of residual translation errors (referring to the Sharpening menu group, when it means Focusing, and more), describing menu links that must be from earlier versions of the firmware, and apparently referring to functionality that just doesn't exist as far as I can see (e.g. focus tracking, or the ability to constrain AF to a particular distance range). I have mainly used the TL2 without the Viso. I haven't properly checked manual focus with TL lenses other than to confirm that focus magnification and focus peaking worked. The only M lens I have tried was the Apo-Summicron-M 75mm with the OUFRO for near macro. It was surprisingly easy to focus with the Viso screen without focus aids. Edited August 11, 2017 by LocalHero1953 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted August 11, 2017 Share #25 Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) Yes, I don't think you do yourself any favours with this talk of "naysayers", etc, Dunk. It's a bit tedious and does nothing to advance a discussion. I've bought far more Leica equipment than I care to admit (so consider myself a fully paid up fanboy) and considered buying a T more than once, especially when it was discounted by some dealers at £699. However, whenever I tried the camera out I just couldn't like it anything like enough to want to own it. Simply too slow and too fiddly to operate. If others wish to deny that this forum been subject to too much Leica naysaying then so be it … but the fact is that it has happened … and in the past it's happened too frequently … and mods have been advised of same. However, I'm pleased to see that the unfounded criticism from those who've never used a T series camera seems to have lessened. But it's not only the T / TL series which has been subject to criticism by those who've never used them … habitual criticism has also been made about the SL with dogmatic claims that e.g. it would 'never sell' and that 'no professional would ever buy one'. How wrong they were! When forum members levy such unfounded criticism it creates a very poor impression of both Leica Camera AG and this forum. And I cannot help noticing that such criticism has been levied by those who have never owned a modern digital Leica camera … as distinct from a 'years ago' PanaLeica . Sometimes there is a strong case for redressing the balance when appropriate. dunk Edited August 11, 2017 by dkCambridgeshire Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted August 11, 2017 Share #26 Posted August 11, 2017 Oh, my goodness. A bit strong, don't you think? People are entitled to their opnions ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted August 11, 2017 Share #27 Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Oh, my goodness. A bit strong, don't you think? People are entitled to their opnions ... Of course they are entitled to their opinions but sometimes opinions have not been based on practical experience and have been expressed rather too hastily e.g. when stating 'SL 601 will never sell to a professional …' that statement was just plain ridiculous and typically dogmatic. dunk Edited August 11, 2017 by dkCambridgeshire Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted August 11, 2017 Share #28 Posted August 11, 2017 I have now checked the TL2 with the Vario-Elmarit-SL 24-90 and find the AF subjectively as fast as on the SL, and much faster and more decisive than the TL 23. It's a bright sunny day, but pointing the TL2 into the depths of my wardrobe (sorry, no photos) didn't slow it down at all. I don't know enough about lens design and AF to know what to make of this. The TL 23 is made in Japan but, according to Jono Slack reporting Leica, not by Panasonic. Perhaps Leica doesn't have full access to the lens firmware/controls that it has with the SL lens, and so can't optimise speed? Even so, that wouldn't explain the occasional hunting with the 23, as if it can't find anything to focus on, which just doesn't happen with the SL lens. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Learner Posted August 11, 2017 Author Share #29 Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) I was pleased to see Local Hero1953's criticism of the TL2 manual. I find the company's manuals heavy ploughing. I don't think the robotic (rapid-fire) nature of the manuals provides ready understanding of a camera's functioning. I find that a chummier, cosier style, as in Alexander White's book on the Leica D-Lux 4, a more pleasant, productive read. I suppose that the uber-technical style of Leica's manuals will appear to some. Edited August 11, 2017 by Learner Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted August 11, 2017 Share #30 Posted August 11, 2017 ...that statement was just plain ridiculous and typically dogmatic. dunk Irony not your strong point? People will form their opinions anyway. How qualified and how much use do they have to have for their opinion to be valid? Some cameras I know I won't want and I don't think will work in the market (XVario). I don't need to buy them or try them. Others, I'm too stupid to recognise that, and I buy them only to find I hate them (Sony A7r). Then there are the ones I like, but they disappoint me (Leica T), and finally the ones I like, but don't buy and realise it's just as well I didn't. They're just opinions. Some like the A7 series, and that still baffles me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VVJ Posted August 11, 2017 Share #31 Posted August 11, 2017 I don't know enough about lens design and AF to know what to make of this. The TL 23 is made in Japan but, according to Jono Slack reporting Leica, not by Panasonic. Perhaps Leica doesn't have full access to the lens firmware/controls that it has with the SL lens, and so can't optimise speed? Even so, that wouldn't explain the occasional hunting with the 23, as if it can't find anything to focus on, which just doesn't happen with the SL lens. I can live with the AF speed of the TL 23mm but it frequently not being able to lock focus, even in not so low light, is disappointing I find... I would have expected the same level of performance as the Q and the SL and it just isn't. Although I haven't run any tests side by side I actually have the impression that the 23mm with the T hunted slightly less than with the TL2... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted August 11, 2017 Share #32 Posted August 11, 2017 I was pleased to see Local Hero1953's criticism of the TL2 manual. I find the company's manuals heavy ploughing. I don't think the robotic (rapid-fire) nature of the manuals provides ready understanding of a camera's functioning. I find that a chummier, cosier style, as in Alexander White's book on the Leica D-Lux 4, a more pleasant, productive read. I suppose that the uber-technical style of Leica's manuals will appear to some. I have no problem with the manual's style. I see it as a reference work, not a guide book. As I wrote, I found the camera intuitive to use. Once I'd kicked off, exploring the menus told me all I needed to know about how to use it. My complaint was about its accuracy. (E.g. another example I've just remembered: the manual says you switch between options on some functions by swiping on the touchscreen, whereas you actually tap to switch. I'd already discovered that you tap to switch before I looked at the manual). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted August 11, 2017 Share #33 Posted August 11, 2017 Irony not your strong point? People will form their opinions anyway. How qualified and how much use do they have to have for their opinion to be valid? Some cameras I know I won't want and I don't think will work in the market (XVario). I don't need to buy them or try them. Others, I'm too stupid to recognise that, and I buy them only to find I hate them (Sony A7r). Then there are the ones I like, but they disappoint me (Leica T), and finally the ones I like, but don't buy and realise it's just as well I didn't. They're just opinions. Some like the A7 series, and that still baffles me. We could discuss the +ve and -ve aspects of the Sony A7 series at length but their sales speak for themselves … they're very successful products. I also bought an A7R and could never bond with it … but swapped it for an A7S which was superb for the intended application … and was then swapped for an A7SII which is even better. Some photographers cannot bond with Olympus M4/3 cameras but others do. At the end of the day it's the images which count … but some critics in the past have never given e.g. the XV a fair trial or understood its design. However, the XV images posted on this forum also, 'speak for themselves'. My XV images have been published and it continues to be my 'compact event camera' of choice. Best wishes dunk Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted August 11, 2017 Share #34 Posted August 11, 2017 I've just tried the SL with the TL23 - it is no faster, and no better in low light, than on the TL2. Looks to me like this is a characteristic of the 23 rather than of the TL2. I look forward to trying the TL60, which I believe is made by Leica in Germany. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted August 11, 2017 Share #35 Posted August 11, 2017 They're just opinions. Some like the A7 series, and that still baffles me.I suspect that a major factor behind radically differing opinions on the merits of particular cameras is the combination of needlessly opaque menu systems with an almost infinite capacity for individual configuration. I can work just fine with my A7s, but if I picked up one belonging to somebody else then the chances are I'd find it unusable without spending at least thirty minutes setting it up to suit my way of working, and even then it would be unlikely that I'd configured it exactly as I intended. How I miss the days of being able to just pick up a new camera and use it without delving into an insanely overly complex menu system. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted August 11, 2017 Share #36 Posted August 11, 2017 And in the end many things are a matter of taste. Specially in regards to user interface, but also things like color and other sensor and lens caracteristics. Besides relativly simple user interface, good optical quality, color has been one reason for me to use Leica cameras. For some reason the standard output is allready very close to what I like, which is not the case for all other brands I have used. And for other people it might be the other way around. And then there are some camera I am enjoying to use, and other leave me "cold", sometimes I cant even explain why. Shutter sound for example is also one thing which has to do with it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted August 11, 2017 Share #37 Posted August 11, 2017 Boys, can the expression of opinions about opinions move to the Bar? I have my own opinions on the subject, but this is quite a useful thread dealing with issues about the TL2? (I realise this request may be a bit futile.....) 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted August 11, 2017 Share #38 Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) I've just tried the SL with the TL23 - it is no faster, and no better in low light, than on the TL2. Looks to me like this is a characteristic of the 23 rather than of the TL2. I look forward to trying the TL60, which I believe is made by Leica in Germany. Dont expect too fast focus with the 60 macro, but so far (only have had it for few weeks now) I like the results a lot. Its not only good for macro but also excellent for portraits. Edited August 11, 2017 by tom0511 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted August 11, 2017 Share #39 Posted August 11, 2017 Dont expect too fast focus with the 60 macro. Can you be clearer? Do you have it? Is it actually slower? Or are you just managing my expectations ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted August 11, 2017 Share #40 Posted August 11, 2017 How's the 35 Summilux-TL on the TL2? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.