David Alan Harvey on M10 vs iPhone

[Guest]

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On his Instagram site, DAH just announced his last workshop at his New York City loft, in a Williamsburg building that is to be redeveloped. DAH will have to move out of the building, which has low rents and which has been the home of many artists including, at one time or another, eight Magnum photographers. One of the comments was from someone who regretted not having the money for the workshop because he or she was saving for a new camera. Here is some of the ensuing discussion:

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  c_e_g Wish I could but I don't have that money since I'm currently saving for a new camera. I'm sure the workshop is awesome tho! Maybe for some other NYC happening

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  davidalanharvey@c_e_g For sure don't spend that much money on a new camera! Cameras don't take pictures. Best invest is to put yourself on a good project. Use minimalist gear. Phone camera good enough.?

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  vincentbgirardi think is misleading to say that they can achieve a great body of work with a iphone, maybe my quality standards are too high

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  davidalanharvey@vincentbgirard I think it depends on where your standards for " quality" lie. Technically an M10 is better than an IPhone. Yet with an iPhone you can probably get more natural moments

  davidalanharvey@vincentbgirard For the type of work I do which is mostly getting inside with people I know I could totally do my type of magazine assignment with an iPhone and you wouldn't know the difference . Go to my book on Rio. Based on a True Story and tell me which pictures were taken with iPhone and which with Leica. I used both. It's a large format book and you'd be hard pressed to tell me one from the other. So from this view I certainly was not trying to mislead.

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  vincentbgirard@davidalanharvey in terms of photo documentary i guess is ''ok'' but can we achieve a fine art print with a phone camera, this is debatable. Anyway i'm happy to hear you about it

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  davidalanharvey@vincentbgirard For large fine art prints a larger file or film is of course preferred. I'm using the GFX for this reason, shoot medium format film, and make darkroom prints for some collectors. Yet that isn't what the discussion was about. Your work from what I see on IG anyway is mostly street photography and cd be done w the phone. I will say that at fine art print auctions I've seen everything from tintypes to Holga to Polaroids. But this started out as a chat about SEEING pictures in the first place. Have you seen Mike Brown book Libyan Sugar ? All shot w the iPhone 4!! In your case for sure you need to be thinking about what it is you are trying to say. Looking at your IG stream I would have no idea. No authorship or style or focus. Get that down and then choose whatever camera works best for you. Yet it still comes down to the PICTURE. A poor picture with hi res is still a poor picture.

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I admire DAH's photography and his attitude to cameras and his openness to new technology. He used an M9 for a while but found it too limiting and moved on to Fuji APC cameras — and the iPhone. He doesn't get hung up on film or digital, or the finer points of which 35mm lens to use, but uses whatever works for him. Refreshing attitude — one that would eliminate more than 90 percent of the threads on this and other photo forums. 

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Alone in Bangkok essay on BURN Magazine

Edited July 24, 2017 by Guest

[earleygallery]

Interesting discussion and fundamentally he's right about putting the photography first and the gear second.

 

I've just entered a photo competition which required a set of images taken on a phone. As it happens the last photo competition I entered and won was with a collage of images I took using a phone - a basic Nokia with I think a really basic VGA resolution camera!

 

Another story - during a recent trip I shot film on a Leica and some snaps with the iphone. Someone particularly liked a couple of the images and asked me for prints to frame. I decided to order them a couple of canvas prints - about 10X8 in size. It was only after ordering them I realised I'd sent one file which was a scan of the film and one which was from the iphone. I was expecting them to look vastly different in print but no, amazingly you would be hard pressed to tell them apart. I think the canvas texture of the image helped a little but I was amazed at how good the iphone shot came out.

 

So, whilst I wouldn't say you can replace an M10 with an iphone (of course not!) I do think people get too hung up on minute differences in the specifications of equipment when really it's the photo that matters.

 

So why do I use a Leica? Well I'd say I use equipment that I enjoy using. That includes Leica, Canon, Bronica and a few others - including the iphone!

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[Jager]

I couldn't agree more that the vast majority of photographers believe, incorrectly, that gear will be their saving grace.  They'll gaze at a lovely picture and their knee-jerk response is to ask "what lens (or camera) was that taken with?"  The inference, of course, being that if they had that same bit of kit they, too, could have gotten that image.

 

Look at the forums here.  For every discussion about art, or creativity, or light, or curating... there are dozens of threads about gear.

 

That said, it's awfully nice to have a camera that allows at least the basic controls of photography - aperture, shutter speed, and exposure - to be exercised.  And am I the only one who thinks the hold-it-out-in-front-of-you-with-one-hand-while-you-stab-at-the-screen-with-the-other ergonomics of your average smartphone don't exactly lend themselves to predictable, reliable results?

 

I like DAH.  But I don't recollect him using a dumbed-down point-and-shoot film camera back in the day.  Nor is he today.  It's more than a tad ironic that he expresses the anything-that-will-make-an-image mantra even as he picks up his medium format digital camera.

 

You don't need an expensive camera to be a good, serious photographer.  You surely don't need an M10.  But it sure helps to have at least a middling decent camera that gives you control over those very basic things that influence how an image will look.  There's minimalist.  And then there's just stupid.

 

And certainly it's a truism that an immersive photographic experience with an able mentor and critic is likely to have far more lasting affect on one's body of work than any new camera ever would.  But the notion of someone signing up for a DAH workshop and incurring all the travel and incidental expenses that go with it... with nought but an iPhone in their pocket, just makes me laugh.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Jager

[Bill Livingston]

Interesting...

 

I just did a book on a road trip I took in January - travelling from Las Vegas and out into the desert, Area 51 and then across to San Francisco. We stayed in some pretty interesting (read, dire) motels, bars and ate in some very basic restaurants... 

 

I did some of the photos with my M240P and some with my iPhone 7. When I sent out the book, no-one could tell which photos were from the iPhone and which were from the Leica... and most of the candids in various bars were taken with my iPhone as it was FAR less noticeable (and didn't end up with a long and boring dialogue about cameras) with the people we met along the way.

 

'Normal' people are actually interested in the pictures themselves... the technical aspects (quality - whatever that means) are really not that interesting.

 

For low light the M240P was considerably better... but in good light, the iPhone was surprisingly good... 

 

Most of the people I know who are interested in my photography assume most of my photos are taken with my Leica... when the reality is, most are actually taken with my iPhone.

 

I think DAH makes some absolutely pertinent points and many on here could do with thinking a little more about his answers...

[Guest]

...I like DAH.  But I don't recollect him using a dumbed-down point-and-shoot film camera back in the day.  Nor is he today.  It's more than a tad ironic that he expresses the anything-that-will-make-an-image mantra even as he picks up his medium format digital camera...

 

Not ironic at all, as he states in the Instagram discussion quoted above that he used the iPhone for many of the photos in his prize-winning book, From a True Story. The Fuji GFX medium-format digital with that he's shooting with right now is a camera he uses only occasionally. Currently, he's shooting mainly with the Fuji XT2. I think he still has his M6 that he likes but shoots with rarely. In addition to the iPhone, last year or so he also occasionally shot with an Olympus underwater point-and-shoot camera, the TG5 (?). I like his camera-agnostic attitude and, as I said, his openness to new technology.

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Alone in Bangkok essay on BURN Magazine

[sblitz]

 

 

I took his previous class in NYC, last fall, and his use of Fuji vs Leica today is simply a matter of who is putting the camera in his hands. He does use a MF film, shoots velvia 50 and makes the big prints because they sell for the big bucks ..... he is in business first and foremost. He told me he liked the monochrome but when Leica took it back he said it was too expensive of a camera for him justify. He also appreciates the ease of digital vs 35mm and sees the Fuji as the digital version of his M6 (he used to say tri-x, 35mm lens, and M6 was all he ever needed in the old days to go out and shoot). BUT, to the point above, he simply saying put your vision ahead of the gear. The right gear will fall into place once you know what kind of photographer you are, want to be, and the message you want to send. Everything else is just details.

[mhicks]

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many on here could do with thinking a little more about his answers...

 

That didn't come across as preachy at all.

 

I think you may be underestimating the population's knowledge and perception just a little.  Let's face it: this forum is a Leica forum, not a photography forum.  It's not unlike the Gibson guitar forum that I sometimes frequent, which isn't a music forum.  

 

This is argued ad nauseum wherever there are sites dedicated to devotees of any brand.  In these pages people will talk just as passionately about whether a button should be placed where it is more than whether a particular photograph is perfect or not.  It happens on the Gibson site.  The BMW site.  The Harley Davidson site.  The Apple site.  etc. 

 

The only shock to me would be if someone were honestly shocked that they couldn't tell if a photo was taken with a phone or any camera.  My consolation story to that person would be to take heart: at least you can tell the difference between a camera and phone, unlike these experts, who could not tell the difference between red and white 

[ramarren]

"Equipment is transitory. Photographs endure."

 

It's easy to talk about cameras and lenses, much much harder to talk about photographs, stories, ideas, and intent.

[luigi bertolotti]

...The only shock to me would be if someone were honestly shocked that they couldn't tell if a photo was taken with a phone or any camera...

I think that there are still SOME photos which can be easily recognized as "made by camera" : but I am also convinced that (as Bill Livingston suggests in post #4) a mix of Camera and Phone files in the hands of the right editor, can be printed on a book without appreciable difference in perceived quality.

Edited July 24, 2017 by luigi bertolotti

[S.Rolf]

Well now I'm wondering if I should cancel that M10 I've had on order for the past three months.........................

[Guest]

S.Rolf - Depends on the reasons that you're buying it...

[Eric1]

While I agree cameras are only tools I would say all my photos from M10 are great with the lenses I use. I don't use the iPhone 6 camera at all and think the sensor sucks but every person has their own take. If you believe you'll take better pictures with the m10 you will. Photography is about believing in the gear you want to have to get the look you want. Don't listen to what other photographers think, no matter how famous, trust your own gut. If you want an m10, get an m10.

[Tailwagger]

I admire the work, but I'd just remark that there are some things you just have to learn for yourself.  I'm not a big Ming Thein fan but one contrarian thing he said a while back made sense to me. Roughly... if buying gear gets you out and shooting more than its worth buying. Finding your own voice means actually clearing your throat and trying to sing.  If the challenge of shooting with an iPhone does it, great. If its a pinhole camera, great. If its an M, great. The thing that masters tend to forget, is that a lot of what they come to understand as truth wasn't that obvious when first they began the journey.  And while its worth saying that the equipment is only a means to an end, its equally true that if you don't get along with it, you cant do your best work. 

[pgh]

DAH takes the approach of most documentary photographers that the image content above all takes precedence. This is one way to look at it, but it is not an objectively correct way. I used to think this way - still do to a large extent however now I make concessions at times. Burtynsky has compelling content but form and detail as only rendered by extreme resolution are critical for him. Even his books (with smaller prints) wouldn't look as good if they're shot at 6x7 instead of 8x10. Sometimes, the content is tangled up in the technical, and you can't untangle them though. The camera matters definitely - the issue is when one says something is objectively better than another - it all depends on how you want your photographs to look. 

 

Context is everything. If you're making a book with reasonably small images, the images are documentary or moment based and you don't mind the look that small sensor/phone images give (with regards to FOV, DOF, DR etc) then it can work. 

 

Phone images look like garbage (well, it depends - one person's 'garbage' is another person's 'character') past a certain size though, and definitely moreso in diminished light. Certain phone images can also look pretty bad in decent conditions.

And if you want to shoot at normal/telephoto focal lengths you lose more. There are other ways to view life than the 28-35mm perspective.

Perhaps his response is appropriate to the photographer he is speaking to. Libyan Sugar works because of the content - the prints themselves are processed to oblivion, it's basically a digital holga, and I still feel like that's a weak point of the book - strong as the work is I don't love how the phone forces an over simplified image from a photographer who had an eye for complex imagery that didn't totally come through there. Either way, the detail or print quality isn't so much the point there. 

 

And FWIW while I can't necessarily tell which images were shot with which in (Based on a True Story) I can hazard some good guesses, and I cn tell that there are a lot of images that I personally think are lacking, technically, and very well may contain a better 'emotional punch' where they made with a better tool. This feels like blasphemy to say this, because I used to be fully of the mentality he's talking about, but since I've delved deeper in to printmaking and showing work outside of small display outlets it becomes more apparent that - even to the intuitive storytelling photographer that professes to be a minimalist and just wants the camera to get out of the way - sometimes IQ matters. 

 

EDIT - I went back and read through the exchange and looked at pictures referred to where phone was suggested as fine. After that I'd personally agree with basically everything DAH is saying. He's essentially prodding the poster to figure out their vision and their voice first - you can't choose the right tool until you have a good idea of what you want to the tool to do. Can't argue with anything in that really.

Edited July 24, 2017 by peterhoffman

[mhicks]

Perhaps it's a bit cynical to also point out that, while it's correct that the photographer matters more than the camera, getting the person to spend $ to attend the workshop is likely just as important as giving good advice.  

[Guest]

mhicks - It is too cynical in this case, in my view.

 

peterhoffman - No one, including DAH, is saying that the iPhone is better than the M10 — actually he states the opposite in one the posts quoted above. However, in this case he is saying that someone starting out in photography, whose work he has looked at on Instagram, could do better to spend money on a workshop than spending it on camera.

 

For those who haven't seen it, here is a four-minute video of a flip-through of the Rio book that DAH referred to.

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Alone in Bangkok essay on BURN Magazine

[pgh]

Perhaps it's a bit cynical to also point out that, while it's correct that the photographer matters more than the camera, getting the person to spend $ to attend the workshop is likely just as important as giving good advice.  

I don't think that's cynical - it's just realistic.

DAH has spent a life making a body of work that draws in many people, and spent recent years cultivating a name and rep for his workshops in the photojournalism world and working tirelessly to mentor younger photographers - I don't think his passion for that is really questionable, personally. I don't begrudge him for making a living off his work, but it would be silly to think there's not also a profit motive there. 

Workshops are par for the course for the semi-retired industry veteran for a reason. For most involved, it's often win-win.

Edited July 24, 2017 by peterhoffman

[pgh]

mhicks - It is too cynical in this case, in my view.

 

peterhoffman - No one, including DAH, is saying that the iPhone is better than the M10 — actually he states the opposite in one the posts quoted above. However, in this case he is saying that someone starting out in photography, whose work he has looked at on Instagram, could do better to spend money on a workshop than spending it on camera.

 

For those who haven't seen it, here is a four-minute video of a flip-through of the Rio book that DAH referred to.

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Alone in Bangkok essay on BURN Magazine

Yes - I guess it would help to know the photogs work he is referring to - but I did mention that for some photographers (likely the one he speaks to) it is entirely understandable to suggest an iphone over a new camera. All depends on the type of work. I guess I just wanted to point out that the 'camera doesn't matter' argument only makes sense within certain parameters - and those parameters can be pretty important - at least IMO. 

[Al_OOF]

Obviously it is not the camera that decides how to make a photo and it's just a medium, but ... even if they will make a phone that could make photos better than Leica I would not be able to use it. I could not make a photo taking my phone away from my eye and in the same manner I have some difficulty shooting with Live View in my M10.

No matter how good an equipment is but how much it can put the photographer at ease. With my Nikon reflex I've never taken pictures (for fun) that I liked while with Leica it's all another story and this was not for Leica's technical superiority but because the rangefinder puts me in the best condition of seeing and interpreting the subject.

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[Guest]

I admire DAH's photography and his attitude to cameras and his openness to new technology. He used an M9 for a while but found it too limiting and moved on to Fuji APC cameras — and the iPhone. He doesn't get hung up on film or digital, or the finer points of which 35mm lens to use, but uses whatever works for him. Refreshing attitude — one that would eliminate more than 90 percent of the threads on this and other photo forums. 

_______________

Alone in Bangkok essay on BURN Magazine

Not 90% but half of the interesting photoposts on this forum have already eliminated themselves over the last few years, including yours Mitch. No blame for the i-phone, but crude and thoughtless comments, specially in the German part of the forum. There were great photographers around but sadly many of them gave up.