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Sunny Sixteen Question


Wayne

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For the past couple of weeks I have been carrying my IID and 50mm 2.5 Hektor around, sans meter. My purpose has been to permanently break the bond with metering.....as far as everyday photography is concerned. I have had some pretty satisfactory results in the early going but am curious about something.

 

I have been playing with a couple of my metered cameras and have discovered  the automatic metering rarely jibes with the sunny sixteen exposure principles. Usually the camera meters call for exposure that is one or two stops greater than sunny sixteen rules call for. I always keep exposure compensation at neutral (0) on the cameras. I understand the camera metering systems are probably a bit more sophisticated, but it makes me wonder if a person does have a bit of latitude- on the high side of exposure- when going with sunny sixteen. I have never seen the metered cameras call for exposure below what sunny sixteen calls for.

 

Thanks for the benefit of any experience out there.

 

Wayne

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Usually the camera meters call for exposure that is one or two stops greater than sunny sixteen rules call for.

 

Sunny Sixteen is a rule-of-thumb, a guide, and in my experience it is rarely as accurate as correct metering. For twenty years or so I was a hand-held meter guy using Westons and Luna-six meters. I thought I was doing well enough until I finally got a BTL meter camera and overall exposures were more consistent. Then I got a couple M7s and dared using Auto and things got even better!

 

I'm not criticizing your aspiration to master meter-free photography. It might be good to reassess what conditions produce what you like and adjust - build your custom in-brain meter. :) Seriously.

 

I am about to head out for the day. It is a perfectly clear blue sky, bright sunny day and I know very well that I'll be metering for the significant shadows and Sunny Sixteen is certainly not going to work at Noon. Nor will normal development.

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I accidentally left the light meter in our hotel room on our last trip to Florida and used Sunny 16 to photograph our granddaughter's soccer match. The frames were two stops overexposed. (Sunny 32?) Sunny 16 works fine in New Jersey, except at the beach.

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Thanks for all the response. I have noticed, many color films allow me a bit of latitude on the high side. The Fuji Superia and Kodak Portra films seem pretty tolerant of mistakes to the high side, but brutal on the low side. Giving up the meter while using the tiny Barnack has been pretty liberating.

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In this case you get the benefit of more talk than wisdom.

 

In my experience, the usual sunny 16 rule is wrong. If I go out right now (it is sunny here in southern Quebec), using 200 ASA my meter and metering approach will tell me to use f5.6 at about 1/250. My resulting negative will be rich in detail and contrast and will print easily. Sunny 16 will have me expose at f16 and 1/200. I will be 3 stops underexposed and the resulting very thin negative will yield a very poor print. The same applies for scans – the first negative will scan well, and the second will not. If I were using colour transparency film (gave that up long ago), the result would be a totally unusable disaster.

 

I almost always use my “sunny 5.6” rule, and adjust to fit the scene in front of my lens. If I have time (e.g. a careful landscape) I will use my meter – but it rarely gives me a surprise. I also don’t trust my own educated guesses in very low light conditions – then I meter.

 

I am not surprised that your camera’s meter doesn’t agree with sunny 16. It is a useful concept that is wrong in the detail. Use it dogmatically, and you will consistently underexpose.
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In this case you get the benefit of more talk than wisdom.
 
In my experience, the usual sunny 16 rule is wrong. If I go out right now (it is sunny here in southern Quebec), using 200 ASA my meter and metering approach will tell me to use f5.6 at about 1/250. My resulting negative will be rich in detail and contrast and will print easily. Sunny 16 will have me expose at f16 and 1/200. I will be 3 stops underexposed and the resulting very thin negative will yield a very poor print.

 

Please read my post above.

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First, I would not compare metering of film cameras and hand-held meters with metering on digital cameras. Digital cameras has no ISO, but some sensitivity of the sensor, which is variation of manufacturing, version, fw and so on. 

 

S16 works for me with keeping of areas where sun is not hitting directly in mind. It is S11 for me. So, if it is bright,bright scene it is f11 1/100 and ISO100 for me. With S16 then I'm using it, I'm using ISO as reference of the shutter speed and I'm only changing aperture. So, with ISO100 film, I'm keeping it at 1/100 and go from f11 to f2.8. Very bright (but shadows or "shadows" are always where) f11, taking it in the light shadow - f8, getting into deeper shadow - f5.6, taking it inside with light from outside - f2.8. If Sun is in the clouds, it is f8 rule then. Same shutter speed but apertures are opening at one stop more.

If it is ISO200 film it is 1/250 and the rest is the same as above. It it is ISO400 it is 1/500.

 

But it also depends on film. I mostly use BW negatives and it is Kentmere 400 for economical reasons or HP5+ which is one of the best BW films ever made. HP5+ is very forgiving for overexposure. So, I'f I'm lazy (it is sunny and friendly event on the weekend) I'll set it to 1/250 and f8 for box speed of HP5+. As long as I'm not entering deep shadows it works perfectly.

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Thanks again. I live in Indiana, USA. Yesterday I shot ISO 120 color film at 1/100 at f16 and f11 in direct sun at about noon....No shadows. I was pretty much pleased with the result. I did allow the "automatic" feature of my negative scan software to make its adjustment- out of curiosity- and noted, in just about every case it increased exposure by 1 or 1.5 stops; and it did seem to be an improvement in every case. I think I will go with the Sunny 11 idea and work my way up from there.

 

Regards,

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"Sunny 16" dates back a long time - perhaps obviously, since it assumes a meterless camera (Sorry, M-A owners!) and rareness of even hand-held meters.

 

In, let us say, the 1930s-1950s, the bane of small-format (e.g. 35mm) photographers was over-exposure and diffusion of light through the relatively thick film emulsions of the era. It really destroyed resolution, and with tiny negs that had to be enlarged 8X to even get an 8 x 10 print, you really wanted as "thin" or minimally-exposed a negative as possible, for best sharpness. Anything approaching over-exposure - in that format - was to be avoided at all costs. Better to have empty black shadows than dense diffused blurry highlights.

 

With that in mind - Sunny 16 makes a lot of sense: a minimally-exposed negative that has "just enough" density for an overall usable, high-acutance picture, so long as you ignored the deep shadows.

 

With modern films - starting with Tri-X and continuing through the TMax/Delta films (and color films using the TMax grain), film resolution has increased, and the coating thickness has decreased, which eliminates the need for a delicate negative "as thin as possible" that prevailed 60-80 years ago.

 

Additionally, the rating of ASA speeds (now ISO) changed in 1960. Tri-X started life as an ASA 200 film, requiring (Sunny 16) 1/250th @ f/16 or 1/500 @ f/11 in bright direct sunlight. In 1960, with the change in how the ASA rated film speed, Tri-X (with no actual change to the film itself) was suddenly re-rated to the classic ASA 400. But many photographers have rated it at the original ISO 200 (especially with high-contrast lenses) for additional shadow detail, right up until today.

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Sunny 16 also depends on where you are. I find in the UK that it's more like Sunny 8/11..

Sunny-8? Must be the South London smog. ;-) I find "proper" bright sunshine in the UK (at least England) to be not so far off Sunny-16 for a decently exposed negative. I know there is a fad for overexposing Portra 400 by a couple of stops but I find it looks perfectly good in sunshine shot at F11@1/500 (or F8@1/500 if I'm shooting towards the light).

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For the past couple of weeks I have been carrying my IID and 50mm 2.5 Hektor around, sans meter. My purpose has been to permanently break the bond with metering.....as far as everyday photography is concerned. I have had some pretty satisfactory results in the early going but am curious about something.

 

 

 

The principle of 'Sunny 16' works for people with a camera who have never used a meter. The principle for photographers who want to break the bonds of a meter is to pay attention to what the meter says until you can second guess it. Don't use some other method just because it is recommended by 'photographers' who need to fill the intellectual void between letting an auto camera do everything for them and going naked.

 

The 'Sunny 16' rule is touted as if some sort of divine revelation, but paying attention to the meter in the first place gives the eye and brain combination a far more accurate foundation on which to judge exposure. And it is adaptable, especially if a meter is still carried just to confirm new lighting situations. So if you want to practice and have either a hand held meter, or an app for your phone (that should be cross checked with your proper meter), guess a reading and then take a meter reading, use facts to see how accurate or how far out you are, do this in different light, randomly change the ISO in your head, it's a great game and leads to results far better than the dumb 'Sunny 16' rule.

Edited by 250swb
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I never liked sunny sixteen, although I did a lot educated guessing with success with my M4. The shutter times on your camera like 125 and 250 don't usually correspond with ISO values of films like 100, 400, 1600 and that confuses me every time. This takes time before the shot and doesn't contribute to learning automatic exposure in your head.

So I worked differently. When starting the learning process and habit of shooting without meter I first stick to one film/ISO and that's ISO 100. If you're changing constantly between ISO's it is very hard to learn. So I use Delta100 and when using Tri-X320 I put on the orange filter, which brings it back to 100 again. Then when I go out for a day of streetphotography for instance, I start with incident light metering in typical situations; sun and shadow and something in between. I love the GossenDigisix2 for this purpose. Gradually I start to feel what's right in the diverse situations, leaving my meter more and more in the pocket.

But there's another thing: do you scan or do you print on paper? If you scan, C41 B&W films like Ilford XP2 or the Kodak 400 B&W have enough latitude and they scan better than silver films too.

When it comes to critical things like landscape photography on silver films for darkroom processing, I'd not be going without a meter.

Edited by otto.f
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Sunny-8? Must be the South London smog. ;-) I find "proper" bright sunshine in the UK (at least England) to be not so far off Sunny-16 for a decently exposed negative. I know there is a fad for overexposing Portra 400 by a couple of stops but I find it looks perfectly good in sunshine shot at F11@1/500 (or F8@1/500 if I'm shooting towards the light).

 

We had a real pea-souper the other day.

 

Atmospheric pollution and the rarely completely cloudless skies over London do seem to knock a stop or so off the Sunny 16 rule. Check for yourself.

 

In the Canary Islands the other week Sunny 16 was indeed Sunny 16 at midday with a totally clear sky.

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Thanks for all the great response. I had a disaster occur yesterday while shooting Foma 400 for the first time. It was, what I determined to be, a "hazy" sun day and, using sunny sixteen, overexposed pretty much an entire roll of film. I think, all good advice considered, I will continue to use sunny sixteen principles....but with an initial meter reading as a reference. I had some pretty good shots on the roll and deeply regret my misjudgement.

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Not to worry. The magazine Camera 35 (RIP) back in the 70s, published an interview with Cartier-Bresson's favorite darkroom printer. He told a story of a famous HCB negative so dense that when printing it, he would turn on the enlarger, start exposing the paper - and then go out to lunch for an hour.

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Not to worry. The magazine Camera 35 (RIP) back in the 70s, published an interview with Cartier-Bresson's favorite darkroom printer. He told a story of a famous HCB negative so dense that when printing it, he would turn on the enlarger, start exposing the paper - and then go out to lunch for an hour.

Thank you. This story allows me to take heart...................And to consider getting into printing.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Late to the topic - but I'd just like to encourage you to keep going with your meterless process.  One of the things that I love about using an RF is that it involves me: I have to focus, frame, and hit the exposure with the depth of field I want.  Success brings me great satisfaction. Otherwise, I might as well use a good point and shoot and just concentrate on the frame. 

 

I shoot film and digital Ms and like to go back and forth.  Except on rare occasions, I don't use the A mode on my M9 or M10 -- I just use 200, 400, 800, or 1600 ISO settings exactly as I do with the box speeds on my film cameras. It's a way to learn and stay sharp. Digital sensors can blow out highlights, so I generally underexpose my sunny 16 (I use Sunny 11) by a stop or more.  Film handles highlights well, and I overexpose a little. Do I occasionally blow a frame? Sure. But I find that my eyes have learned a lot over the years and it all comes pretty automatically now.  In a particularly difficult situation, usually interiors involving multiple light sources, I'll pull out my phone and use its metering app.  Maybe, after your experience with the FOMA 400, I'll take a reading on hazy sunny days (reminds me of sunburns from days I thought were cloudy).

 

Anyway... take heart and keep doing what you're doing. As an experienced photographer, you'll be doing it reflexively before you know it.  And that's fun.

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My first light meter was an extinction meter based on a step-wedge of silica, and my father had used it in the late 1950's with his Exacta MF SLR. Twenty years later, I saved up and bought a Russian Kiev selenium cell meter. Sunny sixteen is just as good as either of them, but these days I have alternatives. I'll go back to sunny sixteen only when my meter's batteries are dead, and when I figure out what the rule ought to be for my latitude!

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Everybody's version of sunny 16 differs.  I think you are on the right tack to try to break free, particularly with the type of photos that you take (which are more of a street or documentary flavor than one of serious landscape, which I wouldn't recommend sunny 16).  Trial and error is the best and perhaps only way to get it right for you.   

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