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50mm Summilux ASPH - What is your hit rate at 1.4?


silverchrome

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I love the rendering of this lens, but I have to admit that the number of shots that I manage to get in focus at f1.4 is pretty low, maybe 5 out of 10, and this is with static subjects only.  

 

I actually stop the lens down sometimes just to improve my "hit rate", and this has made me wonder whether or not I should just sell the lens and stick with a Summicron instead.  After all, most of us buy a Summilux so that we can shoot it wide open at 1.4; the size and weight are extra "burdens", although I have to admit the latter is my own fault having chosen the brass version of the lens over the aluminium one.

 

Someone is bound to say that my camera or lens is out of calibration, and that was certainly a possibility when I had my M9.  However, my M240 seems to be fine (checked with the EVF) but my hit rate is only marginally higher, and that includes images taken with the EVF.  

 

I have 20/20 vision in my shooting eye and my shutter speeds are usually 1/60 or higher but It doesn't seem to make much difference.  One thing I regularly do is recompose after I have focused so maybe this is the problem. 

 

I know there are many variables that could cause a subject to be out of focus, but I would still be interested to know what kind of hit rate people are achieving with their Summilux at 1.4. 

 

Perhaps express it as a number out of ten, and if your hit rate is low, please say if you have checked the calibration of your camera/lens.  I guess people should mention if they're achieving this with an EVF or the optical rangefinder as well.

Edited by silverchrome
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composing may be your problem due to triangulation (if at same distance) and certainly if at different distances. Too bad the M240 only focus at the center with the EVF (I guess to emulate the patch in the RF). I recently read an interview by grEGORy Simpson (I think it was on the LFI website) that discussed a focusing trick (RF) that I had not heard of before that I am now using. He wiggles his finger on his right hand in front of the RF window which causes the patch to blink, making it much easier to see any out of register issues on the RF. I find it really works! (but may not help if recompose).

Regards,
​Bob

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Ciao Silverchrome,

welcome to the forum.

 

The hit rate should be much higher.

 

Let's check the rangefinder

 

1. point to something very far away not less tan one kilometer or to the moon at night. The two images in the patch should be perfectly coincident when you set the lens to infinite.

2. if this is not the case, fine tune the roller with a 2 mm hex wrench until the coincidence is perfect

3. now put a ruler un the table and focus the 10 cm (or 10 inch) from about 1 meter and check the exact focus plane.

 

If the focus plan is where it is supposed to be, that's fine.

If it's not, the arm of the rangefinder is shorter or longer than it should be.

 

You can fix yourself in 30 minutes.

Have a look here

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/118043-m9-coincidence-at-infinity/

 

Better if you test more then one lens to ascertain that the lens is fine, but in my experience, fine lenses like the summilux asph are generally very well calibrated.

 

Ciao

Franco 

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Any focusing errors on this lens are mine... 80-90% hit rate. Maybe this part of the FAQ can help:

 

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/216580-leica-m8-m82-m9-m9p-mm-mtyp240-faqs-questions-with-answers/?p=2464049

 

 

Question: I come from an autofocus camera background. What is the best way to get good focus on the M9?

 

The M9 works the same way as any rangefinder camera, the central patch in the viewfinder is your focusing tool.

It is important to look through the viewfinder in the optical axis. Looking into the camera skewed will result in inaccurate focus.

 

The first thing to do is to ascertain that you can see the rangefinder patch properly. A correct match between the rangefinder and your eye is even more important than it is using an SLR.

Leica sells corrective diopter lenses. Determining which one you need - if any- can be done by going to your optician and holding his try-out lenses between your eye and the viewfinder. The one that allows you to see the rangefinder patch and framelines sharply is the correct one. Order the nearest value from Leica. In a pinch you can use over-the-counter reading glasses for this test. If your eyes need special corrections, you can use your spectacles, provided you can see clearly at 2 metres distance ( the virtual distance of the rangefinder patch). Note that the background will be at background distance,so your eye should ideally be able to accomodate over the distance differential. However, there is some tolerance here.

 

For special cases there are viewfinder magnifiers. They can help, especially with longer and fast lenses and they can give confidence, but they can also be not very useful; they cannot correct errors in the focusing mechanism or your eye, in fact they magnify them.

Also, one loses contrast and brightness.

Leica offers a 1.25x one and a 1.4x. These need diopter correction like the camera, but often of a different value than the camera viewfinder.

 

There are also third-party magnifiers, sold by Japan Exposures, that include a variable diopter correction. 1.15x and 1.35x. For patent reasons they cannot be sold in the USA and Germany for use on a Leica camera, but they can be purchased for use on for instance a rifle scope.

Basically, for an experienced user, magnifiers are not needed and will only lower contrast and brightness, but many users do like and use them.

 

Once the viewfinder is corrected optimally, there are three methods of focusing, in ascending order of difficulty aka training.

 

1. The broken line method. Look for a vertical line in the image and bring it together in the rangefinder patch to be continuous.

 

2. The coincidence method. Look for a pattern in the image and bring it together to coincide. This may lead to errors with repeating patterns.

 

3. The contrast method. Once you have focus by method 1. or 2. a small adjustment will cause the rangefinder patch to "jump" into optimum contrast. At that point you have the most precise focussing adjustment.

 

Side remarks:

 

If you try focusing on a subject emitting polarized light like a reflection it may happen that the polarizing effect of the prism system in the rangefinder will blot out the contrast in the rangefinder patch, making focusing difficult. In that case rotate the camera 90 degrees to focus.

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I have 20/20 vision in my shooting eye and my shutter speeds are usually 1/60 or higher but It doesn't seem to make much difference.  One thing I regularly do is recompose after I have focused so maybe this is the problem. 

 

Shooting at 1/60 and recomposing are both what I would call 'on the edge' procedures with a 50/1.4 wide open. Higher MPixel cameras will show up movement more than film cameras because details they can show are smaller and so more liable to be affected by motion blurring them - I use at least a 1/125 and preferably a 1/250 on 50mm lenses with ~20Mpixel cameras to ensure no image movement will show. Recomposing introduces shifts as the photographer's whole body sways slightly, and this is often enough to shift the point of focus sufficiently to show up at 1.4 in my experience. Sounds like marginal changes in technique will sort this out and they are far cheaper than trying anything else and very easy to implement.

 

I should have added that with 20/20 vision the M rangefinder should be fine even with a 50mm lens at 1.4 down to its minimum focus point - I have a suspicion that I recently read somewhere that the human eye/brain system can detect comparison shifts of 2 minutes of arc which I would guess is less than that required in this case - not that I've calculated it - but 35mm rangefinder cameras (even digital) and 50/1.4 lenses have been around long enough for any fundamental failings (even at 1.4) to be well known. All that said, discrimination is contrast dependant ;) .

 

And I forgot to say that my hit rate is high around 9 perhaps with the remaining 10% being poor because I'm 'on the edge' and being hopeful.

Edited by pgk
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Since your eyesight is good, you should be able to improve your hit rate. 90% is feasible. It’s a wonderful lens wide open so it’s definitely worth persevering.

 

There are a few things you can do, the most important of which is practice. I would also choose a faster shutter speed whenever possible. Recomposing is certainly a factor and you should practise how to lay off for it. The subject has come up a few times on this site, for example:
https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/171403-accurate-focus-wide-open-and-recomposing/

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composing may be your problem due to triangulation (if at same distance) and certainly if at different distances. Too bad the M240 only focus at the center with the EVF (I guess to emulate the patch in the RF). I recently read an interview by grEGORy Simpson (I think it was on the LFI website) that discussed a focusing trick (RF) that I had not heard of before that I am now using. He wiggles his finger on his right hand in front of the RF window which causes the patch to blink, making it much easier to see any out of register issues on the RF. I find it really works! (but may not help if recompose).

Regards,

​Bob

 

 

Find a real Visoflex with ground glass.

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Bottom line---yes, one will likely get a lower hit rate with a 1.4 lens wide open than a 2.0 lens.  And that doesn't just apply to Leica.

However, I feel it is still worthwhile to have 1.4 (or wider) lenses because of the potential at the wider apertures.  Similar to other's advice, my simple suggestion (before anything drastic!) is to take more frames while making small adjustments.  Eventually, that experience of that practice  may even help increase your success rate!?

(I'd recommend staying with the Summilux.)

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I have the pre-ASPH 50/1.4 but DOF is the same.  Slim.  Hit-rate varies.  Highest rate is with static subjects and/or the farther the subject is from the camera.  Lowest rate is with moving subjects and/or at minimum focus distance (1m on mine, I guess 70cm on the later versions and the ASPH).  That of course assumes the lens and rangefinder are in perfect calibration, and the photographer can see the rangefinder image sharply and with full contrast.  I admit that this lens, the 90 Cron and 135 T-E are three that I sometimes tend to use with LV/EVF on the M240 if conditions are such that my hit-rate will be at the low end of the range.

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Hi silverchrome,

I have using the 50 summilux as my only lens for the last 3 months. It is truly an amazing lens. 

 

I would like to know a couple of things before i get to your question. Do you like photos with f1.4 at all? I would like to know if you are taking photos at f1.4 because your lens has that option or you purchased that lens to take photos at f1.4 extensively.

 

Once you answer this question, things become simpler. If you imply the former, you should try to move to summicron (smaller, weighs less, etc) and be happy. If you imply the latter, you should persevere with 50 summilux. Figure if the lens/camera needs any calibration, check optical alignment of your eyes with the VF and see if you can make some corrections, take a lot of photos in f1.4 to figure what works for you etc. 

 

Good luck. One thing is for sure, this is a very good tool for you if you need f1.4.

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And I forgot to say that my hit rate is high around 9 perhaps with the remaining 10% being poor because I'm 'on the edge' and being hopeful.

 

To add to this. If you are getting a poor hit rate then technique may be the culprit as I said before, or it may be subject failure - that is you are shooting material not ideally suited to rangefinder photography at wide aperture. Leica M rangefinders work well at what they are good at but other systems can work better depending on what you are shooting. Its an all too often overlooked fact that rangefinders have limitations. Work within those limitations and they are fabulous, but work outside their envelope or on the edge and they will struggle. We often assume that the M rangefinder is a very versatile tool - well it is - but within limitations.

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Fantastic lens. My hit rate is > 90%. Sometimes the image superimposition is a little bit difficult to handle depending on subject and lightning. If you have trouble with this, try with simple structures like straight lines, and see if you can get to a proper hit rate. Then work your way up.

 

Also, make sure you actually do focus the right thing - specifically true with repeating patterns, looking alike. Rangefinder utilisation is clearly something where training makes the difference. Loads of possible error sources behind the camera. Jaap put up good advise. Go out and find your source of the issue. Try to be as systematic as possible and take your time.

 

I would also guess that a not insignificant number of focus adjustment requests for Leicas without EVF do not actually result in any camera adjustments in the end  :p

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I almost never miss focus with M240 and 50lux. I usually know I missed the focus if that happen when there is time pressure and I will continue click a few more frame until I am able to track focusing, this is how I shooting if I don't want miss the moment. M240 is great compare to m9 in continue shooting response time.

 

I have some hard time to nail 90APO WO, but still give me a lttile time, I get about 80% perfect focused images. Shooting 50lux after APO90, you almost feel like gain fresh air again.

 

I have Sony A7RII, use that focus m lens is simply no go for me to take any image involve people and movement. Unless every time you use digital magnify to guarantee nail focus, that simply won't work for me and take the fun out of picture taken.

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At that narrow DOF (in few cm), it is easy for the subject to change distance between focusing and shutter actuation. Keep things still and your accuracy will improve. I have never measured my hit rate but it seems close to 100%.

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....

 

I have Sony A7RII, use that focus m lens is simply no go for me to take any image involve people and movement. Unless every time you use digital magnify to guarantee nail focus, that simply won't work for me and take the fun out of picture taken.

I find that curious!

I have the Sony A7S and use the Leica 50/1.4 specifically because the M10 (or any M camera I have) will not focus for me on fast moving subjects. I shoot rescue dogs regularly, to assist re-homing them, and they are frequently 'spaced out' from trauma. Focusing the centre spot on a wriggling dog with an M does not allow time to recompose. The Sony gives me 80+% hit rate, because I can focus on any part of the EVF screen. The bit that annoys me is the nano delay for the EVF to fire up when raising the camera to my eye. I do miss shots because of it.

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