Defaced wartime leica

[Giuliobigazzi]

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I have acquired a wartime IIIC that has been heavily and purposely defaced on the top and the back, any idea why and what would have been under it?

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[luigi bertolotti]

In the first picture, the standard engraving "Wetzlar" is quite recognizable... which makes to think that under it there could be the other standard engraving "Germany".

By contrast, could be that the back scratches do not obliterate any engraving... but of course am not sure of.

 

The s/n looks original...by the way, it belongs to the same batch of my IIIc 383.895... (but wartime batches are "complex"...)

 

The reason ? Who knows... maybe it was an abandoned attempt to transform it into a "Luftwaffen Eigentum" or some other military item... they are usually valued more than "civilian" items... and several of them were made in that serial number range.

Edited July 1, 2017 by luigi bertolotti

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[alan mcfall]

Factory records do not show any Luftwaffen deliveries within 379,xxx, and I have recorded no examples.  I have cameras 379458 and 379623 both are normal IIIc models.  I would not expect your camera 379493 to be a Luftwaffen camera.  There are however, many examples of "Heer" cameras in the 379xxx group, most toward the end. I have recorded 15 "Heer" cameras within 379xxx, and I posess camera 379955 which is a "Heer" camera.  Factory records for "Heer" cameras are not diligently recorded or at least not to my knowledge.  Now, "Heer" cameras were not engraved on the rear of the top plate, just on the top.  So, why your camera is defaced on the rear is mysterious. Maybe a name was there, or maybe someone just wanted to make  a regular IIIc look like a defaced Luftwaffen camera to increase value.

With Leica, exceptions are frequent, and perhaps someone else can provide answers.

[Giuliobigazzi]

Thanks for your replies,this is certainly a mystery to me, it looks like the word wetzlar had been defaced using some sort of engraving tool, in vertical lines, as well as filing, there Is evidence of silver paint too applied over both the top and rear. I would say the rear seems done hastily and in a rush, and is almost too bad too be an attempt at forgery.who knows.. If only the camera could speak!

[Giuliobigazzi]

-Update-

This camera was delivered to Berlin on 2 October 1941 shipment number 25994. 'Heer' delivery batch. This explains the defacing on the top part, the rear damage is yet unexplained as Heer cameras were only engraved on the top,

[willeica]

-Update-

This camera was delivered to Berlin on 2 October 1941 shipment number 25994. 'Heer' delivery batch. This explains the defacing on the top part, the rear damage is yet unexplained as Heer cameras were only engraved on the top,

 

Can you quote the source for this? It is not listed in Luigi Cane's book.

 

William

[jaapv]

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Weren't there delivery center engravings as well?

[Giuliobigazzi]

I asked Leica shop in Wetzlar and this is what they have found, is Cane's book a complete list?

[Giuliobigazzi]

Whilst researching I have found this article. In it says that most Heer cameras don't appear in Cane's book as the engravings were done not by the military but by Leitz once the cameras were returned to the factory by the military.

 

http://www.fotografia.it/dettaglionewstecnica/17444/2010-11-28-il-mistero-delle-leica-iiic--heer-.aspx

[Giuliobigazzi]

I correct myself. Quite the opposite. It says the engraving wasn't done at the Leitz factory but only once delivered to the military. This is why they don't appear in Luigi Cane's list

[sabears]

I correct myself. Quite the opposite. It says the engraving wasn't done at the Leitz factory but only once delivered to the military. This is why they don't appear in Luigi Cane's list

 

From the registers we know that only four cameras, for sure,  were officially engraved "Heer" by Leitz (these are reported even on Cane list).

That magazine shows the ultra rare Leica IIIc “Heer” n.388874, that is actually the only one known in existance.

 

Regarding delivery n.25994: it's correct, this delivery is usually associated with Heer, even if may be it was sent to others Armed Forces.

 

So: the engravings on your camera (especially on the back) are a mistery.

 

cheers.

[steed]

I have a similarly defaced IIIf. The story i was told is that it was done to avoid heavy import taxes in the UK by deeming the camera "used." 

[George Furst]

You also asked why this was done. My brother in law lives in Germany and said that this defacement was common immediately after the war. The occupation troops were always looking for evidence that a mamber of the family was involved in the war. If an item with Heer were found, they would assume that the family was part of the regime of Hitler and they would have their house searched in such a way to cause maximum damage. He was in the French zone in the Rhineland and his father as a doctor refused any compensation for medical services with these markings after the war for obvious reasons. That is why it is rare to fine an unmolested copy of a Leica 111c camera!

[wlaidlaw]

You could take it to your local forensic laboratory. They have products which when applied to a defaced engraving, reveal what was originally there. This is used to recover firearm serial numbers after these have been ground off. 

 

Wilson

[TomB_tx]

A polish and acid etch can reveal characters that were stamped into the metal, because the grain pattern is changed by the "flow" of the metal around the impression. I would think engraved characters would be less likely to be detected this way.

[jc_braconi]

Factory records do not show any Luftwaffen deliveries within 379,xxx, and I have recorded no examples.  I have cameras 379458 and 379623 both are normal IIIc models.  I would not expect your camera 379493 to be a Luftwaffen camera.  There are however, many examples of "Heer" cameras in the 379xxx group, most toward the end. I have recorded 15 "Heer" cameras within 379xxx, and I posess camera 379955 which is a "Heer" camera.  Factory records for "Heer" cameras are not diligently recorded or at least not to my knowledge.  Now, "Heer" cameras were not engraved on the rear of the top plate, just on the top.  So, why your camera is defaced on the rear is mysterious. Maybe a name was there, or maybe someone just wanted to make  a regular IIIc look like a defaced Luftwaffen camera to increase value.

With Leica, exceptions are frequent, and perhaps someone else can provide answers.

Sometimes they were hand engraved SS or Stapo or personnal initials or section ... I think hand engraving because the defacing is not deep

[Giuliobigazzi]

Hi all, I've uploaded another photo to show the depth of the defacing, when viewed from the side you can see the central part has had the most brass filed off.

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[wlaidlaw]

Funnily enough at that angle, you can just see "Wetzlar"

[SilentShutter]

Maybe it was stolen and the thief just wanted to get rind of the "evidence" ?

Means the engraving and dindnt care about the number ?

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[jerzy]

The occupation troops were always looking for evidence that a mamber of the family was involved in the war. 

yes, this is most common reason - not to be brought into any connection to german army or even Germany only. 

Another reason for defacing could be to tarn Leica copies.  I bought the camera below years ago from a gentleman from UK. Camera was advertised as a russian copy.

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Some details on the camera on advertising photo were a bit suspicious to me so i decided to buy it. Everything what was pointing to the direction of Leica and Germany has been professionaly milled out - if you consider that brass is only 0,6mm thick this was really precise job. I found as well that this was genuine Leica and not a faked FED. When CLA-ing the camera, under the rangefinder I found the original SN engraved . it is 18180. So the leica was originally IA and was converted to model II, not by Leitz, but using original Leica parts. Parts which were used for conversion are from 1932/1933 (rangefinder and top cover), SN engraving on the top plate was not done by Leitz. During conversions from IA to II Letz was engraving (or at least scratching) the original SN (which is now covered by rangefinder) between the 2 lunetes of rangefinder. The sticker with SN which may be seen on the photo was applied by me.