M10 the game changer?

[Ozytripper]

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Hi Leica and other like minded Leica users,

 

In my opinion the introduction of the M10 is a game changer in the Leica Rangefinder world. Gone are previous "restrictions" such as limited useable ISO range, parallax errors, frameline restrictions and viewfinder blockages.With the available of a good evf (hopefully better ones are being designed), better sensor the M10 is no longer "limited" to the traditional genres of rangefinder photography applications.

 

In the macro area, there now exist a Macro adapter that works well with live view or EVF making macro photography easy and fun

 

Now what about the telephoto aspects of M10 photography, With live view and evf what is there to stop an M10 user from doing "proper" telephotography? An APO 2X and 1.4 X extenders will be very welcome, plus a range of new longer telephoto lenses. Like the glorious days of R photography. I would very much prefer a new set of M telephoto and super telephoto lenses as opposed to using those glorious R lenses - mainly due to the weight aspect. 135mm is way too short. 200m, 400mm and 500mm will do just fine.

 

Zoom lenses is another area that can be liberated. Frame lines not being an issue anymore allows new zoom lenses to be developed. Smaller and less weighty ones than the existing R lenses. I love some of the R zooms but the weight. Also future M bodies with in body Image stabilization will be a most welcome feature.

 

I have heard comment like "the SL system is designed for photographers who want the above listed functions and capabilities". Not everyone wants the accompanying weight that goes with it. In fact the weakness on the current mirrorless systems is that the weight reduction on the camera body is "transferred" to the huge lenses. 

 

The only reason why I moved from the DSLRs to mirrorless and now back to Leica is because of the weight savings. Also back in the film days, 3 days of carrying the R 280mm F2.8 Apo modular lens around the Sydney Olympics killed my lower back.

 

Also note that there are many of us who's eyesight is not as good (even after using vision correction tools of all kinds) anymore so the EVF is a great tool (a built in EVF will be more welcome). Our hands may also not be as steady as when we were wearing younger mens' clothes. So please consider in body stabilization for future M bodies.

 

To me and I am sure many out there in the Leica world, a camera is a tool for photography and as such I should be able to use the tool for all genres of photography. Why would anyone want to carry 2 or 3 sets of camera gears when one can do the job. Nothing wrong with developing a system that has broader applications. For those who don't need the use to M cameras for the "new" genres of photography mentioned above you won't be affected by these new  developments anyway.

 

So Leica are you going to give us multi genre photographers a more complete system?  Please......?????

Someone did say that the M rangefinders are now a mini sized DSLR. Nothing wrong with that statement, except for the limited range of lenses that is still so Rangefinder focused.

 

 

[jaapv]

Well, if we follow that  reasoning, the SL was the gamechanger, using M lenses it weighs approximately the same as the M10, the size is not much different from the M10 with Visoflex and the camera is more versatile with a better EVF than the M10.

Better AF zoom lenses too

 

The M10 is first and foremost a rangefinder, the EVF a practical add-on (as is the EVF2 on the M240), much improved, but still an evolution. As are all the other advances over previous models.

A desirable camera? yes. The best digital rangefinder ever built? certainly. The most versatile one? - err..no that is the M240.

A great evolution? yes. But not a gamechanger. Those were the M3 and M8.

 

 

As for telenses, yes, it is possible and I will do so happily with good effect - on the M240.

If I want practical long focal length photography, modern MFT cameras are more suitable if one wants to keep it small and light, as are ff DSLRs and mirrorless. The dichtomy there is in the sensor format - full frame long telelenses will eclipse camera size and weight, no matter which focusing system the camera uses.

There is not much to choose between an M10 with the Vario-Elmar 105-280 (which is huge and and heavy) and a Canon 5Dsomething with the equivalent Canon lens. Or the SL with the 90-280 for that matter.

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[lct]

Game changer in an old party then . Just kidding but what you're describing here is what Leica presented as "best of both worlds" at the launch of the M240 in 2012. The M240's EVF was sluggish though and the best Leica has been able to do since then is obsolete blackouts with the M10's Visoflex. To be true game changers digital Ms must be able to compete in LV mode with mere $1k mirrorless cameras. 

Edited June 26, 2017 by lct

[adli]

Macro and Tele lenses will come for the SL. the M10 is pointing the M more in the direction of a niche rangefinder camera. If you look at the M lenses released in the last few years, they are all traditionally rangefinder lenses.

[jaapv]

And, in general, a bit larger than they used to be.

[paulsydaus]

Hi Leica and other like minded Leica users,

 

In my opinion the introduction of the M10 is a game changer in the Leica Rangefinder world. Gone are previous "restrictions" such as limited useable ISO range, parallax errors, frameline restrictions and viewfinder blockages.With the available of a good evf (hopefully better ones are being designed), better sensor the M10 is no longer "limited" to the traditional genres of rangefinder photography applications.

 

In the macro area, there now exist a Macro adapter that works well with live view or EVF making macro photography easy and fun

 

Now what about the telephoto aspects of M10 photography, With live view and evf what is there to stop an M10 user from doing "proper" telephotography? An APO 2X and 1.4 X extenders will be very welcome, plus a range of new longer telephoto lenses. Like the glorious days of R photography. I would very much prefer a new set of M telephoto and super telephoto lenses as opposed to using those glorious R lenses - mainly due to the weight aspect. 135mm is way too short. 200m, 400mm and 500mm will do just fine.

 

Zoom lenses is another area that can be liberated. Frame lines not being an issue anymore allows new zoom lenses to be developed. Smaller and less weighty ones than the existing R lenses. I love some of the R zooms but the weight. Also future M bodies with in body Image stabilization will be a most welcome feature.

 

I have heard comment like "the SL system is designed for photographers who want the above listed functions and capabilities". Not everyone wants the accompanying weight that goes with it. In fact the weakness on the current mirrorless systems is that the weight reduction on the camera body is "transferred" to the huge lenses.

 

The only reason why I moved from the DSLRs to mirrorless and now back to Leica is because of the weight savings. Also back in the film days, 3 days of carrying the R 280mm F2.8 Apo modular lens around the Sydney Olympics killed my lower back.

 

Also note that there are many of us who's eyesight is not as good (even after using vision correction tools of all kinds) anymore so the EVF is a great tool (a built in EVF will be more welcome). Our hands may also not be as steady as when we were wearing younger mens' clothes. So please consider in body stabilization for future M bodies.

 

To me and I am sure many out there in the Leica world, a camera is a tool for photography and as such I should be able to use the tool for all genres of photography. Why would anyone want to carry 2 or 3 sets of camera gears when one can do the job. Nothing wrong with developing a system that has broader applications. For those who don't need the use to M cameras for the "new" genres of photography mentioned above you won't be affected by these new developments anyway.

 

So Leica are you going to give us multi genre photographers a more complete system? Please......?????

Someone did say that the M rangefinders are now a mini sized DSLR. Nothing wrong with that statement, except for the limited range of lenses that is still so Rangefinder focused.

I actually think you might be on to something in terms of zoom lenses without autofocus. I think the main weight savings in the M and what makes the system unique with your idea is the manual focussing. Yes it is a prime system with optical rangefinder which should always remain, but the idea of a zoom lens that is manually focussed could be something really unique to Leica.

 

 

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[adli]

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And, in general, a bit larger than they used to be.

 

Yes, unfortunately. But still rangefinderlenses.  I have to say I prefer the size of the smaller lenses, but I understand that modern optics with todays quality requirements make it hard to fit fast lenses in the smallest "packaging".

[jaapv]

I actually think you might be on to something in terms of zoom lenses without autofocus. I think the main weight savings in the M and what makes the system unique with your idea is the manual focussing. Yes it is a prime system with optical rangefinder which should always remain, but the idea of a zoom lens that is manually focussed could be something really unique to Leica.

 

 

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Not really, the Vario-Elmar R 105-280 4.2-R  I mentioned weighs 1750 gram and is  more bulky than the 280/4.0 APo-R (which is about the same size and weight as the Canon 4.0-300), in the same league as the 90-280 SL. Those few grams for an AF motor do not really make much of a difference.

[paulsydaus]

Not really, the Vario-Elmar R 105-280 4.2-R I mentioned weighs 1750 gram and is more bulky than the 280/4.0 APo-R (which is about the same size and weight as the Canon 4.0-300), in the same league as the 90-280 SL. Those few grams for an AF motor do not really make much of a difference.

Good to know, great knowledge on these forums.

 

 

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[Ozytripper]

Macro and Tele lenses will come for the SL. the M10 is pointing the M more in the direction of a niche rangefinder camera. If you look at the M lenses released in the last few years, they are all traditionally rangefinder lenses.

Hmmmm. Interesting that Leica released the M macro adapter 14654 that "will turn every M lens into a Macro lens" or something to that effect?

When was Macro photography a provenance of rangefinders?

And the R to M adapter to use R lenses on Ms? (enabling the usage of Zooms and telephotos.

If Leica wants M users to stick to the traditional rangefinder genres only then why introduce these products? Why because we now have M cameras that can fully utilize these lenses and to expand the photographic genres.

 

I could not review my photos on the M9 due to poor LCD quality (so I passed) and I could use the EVF on the 240 due to poor resolution (so I passed). Also I need high ISO performance as I shoot in all conditions where possible. The M10 provided all the answers in a USEABLE package albeit still not the best in the market.  

 

What is the problem with expanding the usage capability of a tool?

It is a different situation where it is fashionable to just add features to a camera body just to be ahead of competitors. Bells and whistles do nothing to improve efficiency. That's why I hate MENU based cameras with so many functions for every situation but what's the point when one cannot find the required function as it is buried in some sub menu. I have never need 14 frames per second (or 20 frames now). Never used more than 3 frames and only rarely. I only need aperture, ISO, Shutter speed and Exposure compensation functions. Preferably on dials and knobs 

 

I prefer a tool that will allow  me to do my genres of photography and not one that limits my genres of photography. All I need are more lenses in smaller packages and the lightest possible. M10 has the capability to use them effecively.

 

And Leica has already given us a taste of it through the macro adapter and the R to M adapter  

[Ozytripper]

I actually think you might be on to something in terms of zoom lenses without autofocus. I think the main weight savings in the M and what makes the system unique with your idea is the manual focussing. Yes it is a prime system with optical rangefinder which should always remain, but the idea of a zoom lens that is manually focussed could be something really unique to Leica.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Aha. One who sees the light out of the square. Welcome to he club

[jaapv]

Hmm... i have been using manual focus zoom lenses on the M240 since mid-2012.

Small lightweight ones too, like the Olympus Zuiko 75-150. But the 35-70 4.0 R and 80-200 R are unlikely to be bettered by a newer design, not to mention the exotic APO-zooms R.

 

With a used market full of manual zoomlenses that one can use on the M240/M10, ranging from small and light to heavy and superb like the Leica R lenses, but quite a few from other brands too, I doubt whether there is a viable market for new ones.

What focal length do you want? 

[jaapv]

Hmmmm. Interesting that Leica released the M macro adapter 14654 that "will turn every M lens into a Macro lens" or something to that effect?

When was Macro photography a provenance of rangefinders?

Since about 1956. The Visoflex+ Bellows-M and 135 mm lens head was - and still is- one of best and most practical macro combinations I know.

[Eric1]

No M has ever been a game changer. They simply tweak the previous model and try to make it an enjoyable experience. That's what it's all about. An M is a joy to use. If you're into endless tech specs then leica is never going to meet your demands and is always going to be behind the competition so to speak. As for the M10 v M240, after using both recently, the M10 is clearly better in every aspect than the M240.

[Ozytripper]

Not really, the Vario-Elmar R 105-280 4.2-R  I mentioned weighs 1750 gram and is  more bulky than the 280/4.0 APo-R (which is about the same size and weight as the Canon 4.0-300), in the same league as the 90-280 SL. Those few grams for an AF motor do not really make much of a difference.

As mentioned before I don't want to carry more than one system

 

I was waiting eagerly  for the SL to be announced and when it was I was shocked. The size of the camera, the size of the lenses and the weight. I had it for a weekend  Could not handle the weight. It also looked ugly in my eyes (my apologies to SL owners, beauty is in the eye of the beholder)

 

Just for comparison

Leica R Vario Elmar 28-70mm F3.5-4.5 is 450g

Leica M 28-35-50mm F4 (i know it is 50mm and not 70mm) is 340g

a 32% difference in weight not to mention the size of the R lens

M lenses are generally smaller and lighter

 

I had a big Canon system from 16mm to 400mm and a 5Dmk3 way to heavy (also 1.4X teleconverter)

Scaled down to a Fuji system 10mm to 400mm (effectively 15mm to 560mm) with 1.4X teleconverter giving me a reach of 800mm and much lighter

Sold my Canon system

 

If Leica can give me some nice telephoto M lenses out goes my Fuji (or maybe just keep for birds in flight which is easier with autofocus

As to big lenses being unbalanced on a small body, ever tried a Canon 800mm or 600mm lens even on a pro body?

My Fuji equivalent at 800mm is so much light and better balanced albeit not as fast as those big primes

There comes a point when any camera will be small and unbalanced on a big lens.

 

Also the R lenses has choices too

70-210mm  700g

80-200mm  1000g

then then the whopper 70-180mm

 

Maybe its time to see the possibilities of what the M10 and future Ms can offer photographers and not just be a limited rangefinder forever.

Expanding its capabilities does not diminish its usefullness as a traditional rangefinder

Also those who like auto focus and big cameras can go the SL way

Open up the choices

[Jeff S]

As jaap noted, the M3 and the M8 were the 'game changers'. One started it all, and even Leica once said a digital version wasn't feasible.

 

Jeff

[Ozytripper]

No M has ever been a game changer. They simply tweak the previous model and try to make it an enjoyable experience. That's what it's all about. An M is a joy to use. If you're into endless tech specs then leica is never going to meet your demands and is always going to be behind the competition so to speak. As for the M10 v M240, after using both recently, the M10 is clearly better in every aspect than the M240.

Hmmm, i don't recall mentioning tech specs. In fact I said all I need are Aperture, Shutter speed, ISO and Exposure compensation dials.

I was talking lenses, A wider range of lenses that can be used with the latest M models.

I grew up with Kodachrome so I hardly ever use photo softwares. That's how much tech I need

Sorry to have confused you

[Ozytripper]

Hmm... i have been using manual focus zoom lenses on the M240 since mid-2012.

Small lightweight ones too, like the Olympus Zuiko 75-150. But the 35-70 4.0 R and 80-200 R are unlikely to be bettered by a newer design, not to mention the exotic APO-zooms R.

 

With a used market full of manual zoomlenses that one can use on the M240/M10, ranging from small and light to heavy and superb like the Leica R lenses, but quite a few from other brands too, I doubt whether there is a viable market for new ones.

What focal length do you want? 

Hi Jaapv,

Since taking delivery of my M10 in mid February I have bought both the tri-elmar zooms, 35mm F2, 50mm F0,95, 50mm F1.0 V4, 50mm F1.4 asph, 50mm F2 Apo, 35mm F1.4 Zeiss and the Leica 80-200 F4 zoom

So effectively I have most of the range up to 200mm covered

But I find the R 80-200mm to heavy

Preferred the 70-210 in weight but did not like the zoom action tele is pulling in instead of pushing out 

Would love at least an M 200mm and an M 2x apo (don't care if it is F2.8 or F4. Lighter would be my preference)

Any longer lenses from 200mm up is a bonus to me

 

I know that older Leica lenses have different character but unfortunately they come in all conditions. Lately I was told that uncouth dealers are sending old Leica lenses to be re-coated by optometrists. Don't know if its true. So I try to avoid vintage or used lenses wherever possible

 

Oh - according to Ming Thien a Leica reviewer who specializes in macro photography (watches I think he said) was not too happy to work with Leica Macros. Perhaps during it's time what you mentioned was at its forefront of technology but has been left behind over time. 

[lct]

The M240 was a game changer in that it allowed to use M & R lenses in RF/LV/video modes for the first time in Leitz/Leica history. The M10 is just a crippled successor to the M240 from this viewpoint. Chances to get special zoom lenses for it are IMO close to zero. I would rather bet on a mini SL at some point. YMMV.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jaapv]

A new design 80-200 would not be substantially lighter and only marginally better - but probably 6 or 7 times as expensive.

Leica still regards the M10 as a rangefinde- and justly so-, so don''t expect anything.

 

BTW, if you want a light and small, and surprisingly good midrange zoom - the Olympus Zuiko 75-150, costs about 100$ for a mint example - factor in an adapter and a CLA and you will have a fantastic little zoom under 250$.

All older zoom lenses need a CLA

They pump air, resulting in internal haze. Washing the windows will make a spectacular difference.

 

As for macro. The Macro-Elmar-M 90 is indeed not a true macro lens.

But the old Visoflex2/3-Bellows M combination with a Tele-Elmar 135 lenshead is a hard game to beat despite it being a Rube Goldberg contraption. Not only is the EVF that can hold a torch to the visoflex ground glass not yet born, I have yet to see a Macro lens that betters the Tele=Elmar.

 

I like Ming - but  a grain of salt has to be taken from time to time.