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New S 008


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I'm not convinced. That's like claiming that Canon and Nikon are "dead" because of mirrorless. It hasn't happened yet (not by a long shot), and probably won't ever happen.

 

SLR and mirrorless technologies complement each other very well.

I can see Leica offering a more mass-market mirrorless S next time around (as opposed to the S30|45 which is targeted at studio/architecture shooters), while still offering an S (008) with the same general shape as the 007.

I agree with jplomley's conclusion but disagree with the statement. My feeling is that it's not EVF that would make both x1d and GFX dominate but a much lower price as compared to that of Leica S. I assume that the image quality among all these cameras would be very similar. 

 

Now, I'm not sure what's going to happen with Pentax 645Z. Many people love its OVF, weather sealed body, and the low price. If Pentax introduces 100MP 645Zii and 1-2 new high-quality lenses, it would, unfortunately, be very hard to justify paying premium for Leica S (which I truly love). 

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There are two main problems with the Pentax.

 

First and foremost, the system offers very few lenses that are worthy of the sensor. The 90 is good, and the 28-45 is OK, but everything else is a throwback to the 1980s (and they weren't world-beaters even then). Maybe that was OK when they were the cheapest digital MF option, but they aren't anymore.

 

The body is also a throwback to the 1980s. It's an awkward design, based around a vestigial film cassette.

 

Both of these issues raise the bigger question of whether Pentax's corporate parent is committed to medium format. The 645D came out 8 years ago, and was in the pipeline for 8 years before that. It should be fully fleshed-out by now, but it isn't.

 

Say what you want about the S, but the body is a lesson in ergonomics, and every lens is a winner.

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There are two main problems with the Pentax.

 

First and foremost, the system offers very few lenses that are worthy of the sensor. The 90 is good, and the 28-45 is OK, but everything else is a throwback to the 1980s (and they weren't world-beaters even then). Maybe that was OK when they were the cheapest digital MF option, but they aren't anymore.

 

The body is also a throwback to the 1980s. It's an awkward design, based around a vestigial film cassette.

 

Both of these issues raise the bigger question of whether Pentax's corporate parent is committed to medium format. The 645D came out 8 years ago, and was in the pipeline for 8 years before that. It should be fully fleshed-out by now, but it isn't.

 

Say what you want about the S, but the body is a lesson in ergonomics, and every lens is a winner.

 

Pentax 90mm macro and 28-45mm lenses are fantastic. What I'm saying is that if Pentax releases 100MP 645zii at $7-8k and 2-3 high-quality lenses, then it'd be eve more difficult to justify premium price of Leica S over Hasselblad, Fuji or Pentax. And I'm not even talking about the cost of lenses. 

 

Take 10 photographs using these systems with top lenses. Would anyone be able to say which one was taken with which camera? Very few. Then, how many people would justify paying that much extra for Leica if the image quality is already superb for all these systems? Leica becomes Maserati, which has nice body and exhaust but is outdated and overpriced. Sure, it does its job but at a much higher price than comparable tools. 

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Take 10 photographs using these systems with top lenses. Would anyone be able to say which one was taken with which camera?

I've done these tests, and I can tell for sure. It's not just sharpness, but also flare resistance, absence of fringing, the ability to shoot against bright backgrounds (in the studio, or against an overcast sky). The S lenses are the very best available right now in medium format.

 

I know what you are saying. "What if Pentax finally got serious about lenses in their 645 system?" My point is that they haven't yet, and it's been a decade (more like 15 years since they first announced that they were working on digital medium format). It could finally happen, but it's unlikely.

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I've done these tests, and I can tell for sure. It's not just sharpness, but also flare resistance, absence of fringing, the ability to shoot against bright backgrounds (in the studio, or against an overcast sky). The S lenses are the very best available right now in medium format.

 

Yes, would be interesting to see what the S lenses can bring on a 60+ mp sensor.

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As a shooter of an 006, I truly could not be happier with the results, both with Leica and Contax lenses. The prints I make on my Epson 7800 stand up quite admirably to the images I have printed from MF (Rollei 6008i) to as wide as 30." In some instances, even better. 

But the reality is that most of my printing tends to be in the 18-22" range, on the long side. I have sold several prints in that size. While I sometimes succumb to the allure of the "big" print, the cost of framing often brings me back to reality. When you have your prints in a gallery, and give them 30-40% of the sale proceeds, the cost of the framing becomes a very significant consideration.

To the point, is there a practical advantage of having an image from a sensor approximately two to three times the current S generation, if like me, someone is making prints that do not exceed 24" - 30". And then, what are the trade offs. I have read that the bigger the sensor, the more carefully the image must be shot, because all imperfections (ie: pilot error) will be revealed. Frankly, my beloved S already does that for me, and in spades. Now, if the big sensor dramatically stretched the reach of low light shooting, it would have my undivided attention.

Cheers,

David

Edited by Deliberate1
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  • 1 month later...

If the 008 gets up to M10 territory in ISO, count me in. Otherwise, I don't really the 007 needing much of anything. 

I use the 007 with ISO 1600 frequently and  have no noise issues to date.

Same with my M10. 

I found the 007 to be much improved over the 006 where my max ISO was 400..

Albert  :)  :)  :)

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Where does it say anything about a rangefinder?

 

 

It's been talked about for a while now. Fuji said it was coming at the GFX launch, that GFX would be a family of cameras.

 

https://fujiaddict.com/2017/12/01/fujifilm-gfx-r-announcement-coming-in-2018/

 

Yes;  Range Finder Medium Format Mirrorless İntercangeable Lens Camera.

This source has been 100% accurate in the past and now the Fujifilm GFX deals make more sense. It’s highly likely this camera will have the 50MP sensor found in the current GFX, but it hasn’t been confirmed yet. The lower price point makes the GFX R more accessible to photographers looking to get into medium format and could hint at a GFX S price drop to come (maybe permanently adopting the sale price). There has never been a better time to join our Fujifilm GFX Owners Group and follow the Fujifilm GFX Page if the GFX interests you.

 

​It comes as no real surprise given Fuji's long history of Medium Format Rangefinders.

 

With a cheaper price than the GFX-50s and also a price drop on GFX-50s, it will really put a cat amongst the pigeons. It will probably outsell everything.

 

Leica is going to have to pull a rabbit out of the hat with the S.

Edited by Paul J
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I use the 007 with ISO 1600 frequently and  have no noise issues to date.

Same with my M10. 

I found the 007 to be much improved over the 006 where my max ISO was 400..

Albert  :)  :)  :)

 

 

I had a couple of location shoots where I really could have used 3200 or 6400 with the S. If Leica could somehow maintain the 15 stops of dynamic range and have the S produce clean files at 6400, I'd be quick to trade in the 007 for the 008. Seems to me that all the talk for more megapixels has to do more with oneupmanship than real need in the field, that is, unless you're some kind of Salgado. 

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It's been talked about for a while now. Fuji said it was coming at the GFX launch, that GFX would be a family of cameras.

According to the linked rumour site, that camera may be announced at Photokina in Autumn 2018, with no availability timeline.

 

I wouldn't make any plans based on rumoured products, especially a year (or more) out. We've seen Fuji's hybrid "rangefinder" system before in the X-Pro models, so we have a decent idea of how such a camera would operate. I wonder how they will manage to contain their current camera's bulk. One expects a rangefinder to be light and compact.

 

Anyways, that's a discussion to have in a year, if the rumour pans-out. Who knows what Leica will have shown us by then?

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I put some of my thoughts on what improvements we might see in the next generation S camera. Educated guesses and some wishful thinking, for sure, but a good exercise nonetheless.

 

Thoughts on the Next Generation Leica S

 

I've sprinkled in some quick one-question mini surveys, as I'm curious what other S users think on the major points.  Looking forward to your feedback!

Edited by dfarkas
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I put some of my thoughts on what improvements we might see in the next generation S camera. Educated guesses and some wishful thinking, for sure, but a good exercise nonetheless.

 

Thoughts on the Next Generation Leica S

 

I've sprinkled in some quick one-question mini surveys, as I'm curious what other S users think on the major points.  Looking forward to your feedback!

 

Well coming from the perspective of someone who wants the S, likes the rendering but is put off by reliability and slow development and needs more than 40MP in their main workhorse:

 

Actually the camera was announced 2014 at Photokina. So approaching 4 years. Resolution has never had an increase since...2008? So some of us have been waiting for a very. long. time.

 

Many would argue that lens line isn't complete. Long 300ish, Wide T/S, Standard Summicron (Fuji and Blad are rumoured to have VERY fast standards coming), something like a 70-150 zoom. I don't think Leica can rest on what they have with the competition looming and doing nothing doesn't do much in terms of the perception of stagnation. I want to know the investment is safe for a very good future - that includes new lenses especially ones that were pending: 350 and wide T/S.

 

I actually prefer OVF for what ever that is worth. But an EVF would be very useful too.

 

Personally, I won't be waiting another 1-2 years for a 50MP camera that will likely be brought out another 2 years after that with reliability and service concerns (sorry Leica is still in the sin bin for that). And that is the impression I'm getting. In that time the mirrorless Fuji and Hasselblad will be 150MP and will have a lot more lenses, will catch up on their design quirks and just seems like a far wiser proposition with more of an eco system on offer and a future that seems more safe. The current medium format revolution isn't one that can be ignored. Particularly when a combination of Hasselblad H and X, or perhaps just an X sometime in the not so distant future, also comes close to replacing my needs for an M - that is a further knock on effect to consider.

 

Like I said, I like the S rendering which is why I am here, still, adding my 2 pennies for what ever it is worth. This is a frustrating and unrequited love affair, David! 

Edited by Paul J
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I put some of my thoughts on what improvements we might see in the next generation S camera. Educated guesses and some wishful thinking, for sure, but a good exercise nonetheless.

 

Thoughts on the Next Generation Leica S

 

I've sprinkled in some quick one-question mini surveys, as I'm curious what other S users think on the major points. Looking forward to your feedback!

Lens line complete? How soon we forget. You were fairly confident right here on the forum that there would be more lenses, which have yet to materialize....

 

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/152419-waiting-for-the-350mm-lens/page-1?do=findComment&comment=1683211

 

Since that post, Leica has delivered some terrific zooms, but they've been for the SL, not the S. The S 30-90 has never received the praise that the SL zooms have received, and the S lenses could also benefit from OIS.

 

SL and S lenses unfortunately share the common theme of slow releases and lack of reliable longer term roadmaps. One cannot confidently plan for future needs, especially if budget considerations preclude getting virtually every offering as you have done.

 

Lens choice aside, the two things that the S system needs to attract me are a better track record of system reliability and better customer communications and service support, particularly in the US. For me, these factors outweigh any incremental improvements to the camera body. The 5 year limit on AF motor repairs was a step in the wrong direction.

 

Jeff

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The 5 year limit on AF motor repairs was a step in the wrong direction.

 

I think you will find that no other camera brand repairs lenses for free after 5 years. It would be great if Leica could offer that, but at least they offer the repair for a reasonable fee. many brands don't even offer that.

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