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New S 008


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I guess tastes differ but if the next S goes EVF then that is it for me: no more S. One of the best things about the S is its fantastic OVF.

 

Same here. I would never have bought into the S system if it wasn't for the amazing viewfinder. Besides, Sinar already sell a mirrorless S (the S30|45). I would be surprised if even a small portion of those who claim to want a mirrorless S have tried it.

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Same here. I would never have bought into the S system if it wasn't for the amazing viewfinder. Besides, Sinar already sell a mirrorless S (the S30|45). I would be surprised if even a small portion of those who claim to want a mirrorless S have tried it.

The new Sinar back is interesting and, indeed, can be used as a mirrorless camera.

Unfortunately, Sinar/Leica build it without a shutter, not like the Sinar- M was made before, and if you add the electronic shutter or the S- CS adapter, a viewing display and cables it becomes a bit too cumbersome to use outside.

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given the past refresh cycles of 2009, 2012 (same sensor, better electronics), 2015 (new sensor&electronics), it seems logical that some S008 will come in autumn of 2018 with the same sensor.

 

 

+ for 2018. I would, however, think that Leica will increase the pixel density in the next versions of S and SL, with S being the system to be updated first. I don't think we will see less than a 20 percent increase in the pixel density, if so the S could will have a 60+ MP sensor. This is consistent with previous statements from Leica (that going from 40-ish to 50-ish MP doesn't make that much of a difference), and the fact that Fuji GFX and Hassey X1D have 50 MP sensors already (and GFX is rumoured to offer 100MP in 2018). Time will tell...

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I would guess 2018 announcement, deliveries early 2019.

 

One would think that given the newer sensor technologies, a 60+ meg S would be likely despite what Leica have previously indicated regarding pixel density. Personally, I do not think it will make all that much difference for a majority of S type work. However, more meg will keep it competitive from a marketing perspective, and perhaps expand the potential user base. 80 to 100 meg would make an obvious difference, but it would challenge the use for a lot of current S applications.  

 

If the CS sync speed is increased it will render all existing CS lenses "old" ... Hasselblad recently upped their leaf-shutter sync to 1/2000, but that is for the new mirror-less lenses, and newer H lenses. Sync speed is a function of the in-lens leaf shutter, not just a camera firmware update.

 

IMO, Leica would be better off using Nikon flash protocols like Hasselblad did which allow use of HSS and TTL OCF Strobes ... or in some cases, Hi-Sync like Elinchrom now offers. This would greatly benefit non CS lens users by going beyond the current 1/125th FPS sync limits.

 

- Marc

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+ for 2018. I would, however, think that Leica will increase the pixel density in the next versions of S and SL, with S being the system to be updated first. I don't think we will see less than a 20 percent increase in the pixel density, if so the S could will have a 60+ MP sensor. This is consistent with previous statements from Leica (that going from 40-ish to 50-ish MP doesn't make that much of a difference), and the fact that Fuji GFX and Hassey X1D have 50 MP sensors already (and GFX is rumoured to offer 100MP in 2018). Time will tell...

my basic Statement  really was that it might be Leica's strategy to use one sensor for two generations of cameras. It is a bespoken sensor with certainly high development costs, probably much more costly than e.g. the 50 MP Sony sensor, even though this one seems to be fine tuned according to each customer's demands as well. Leica needs to sell a certain number of these sensors before they have recovered the costs.

 

On the other hand, you are right regarding the higher resolutions of the competitors (and in Hasselblad's case, apparently also better colour rendition). so, Leica might have to do something about these issues as well. Might be more dramatic than we think, and could end in the decision to cancel the S System.

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On the other hand, you are right regarding the higher resolutions of the competitors (and in Hasselblad's case, apparently also better colour rendition). so, Leica might have to do something about these issues as well. Might be more dramatic than we think, and could end in the decision to cancel the S System.

 

I have an X1D and 007 (and S2). I wouldn't say the HB colour is better. It's different but not better.

 

I don't think the S system will end yet. After all the only thing Leica did at the last Photokina was to promote the professional services around the S and SL systems.

 

Gordon

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  • 3 months later...

With the recent proliferation of cheaper high-res alternatives, I think Leica will find it very difficult to justify the exorbitant pricing of the S-system. On top of that, the S system is already lacking third party support in areas that count to some of the target audience (namely flash*). I am more skeptical by the day as to whether we will see a new S at all, unless Leica can come up with something much more technologically advanced than the current S, at a price at least 1/3 less than what the S007 was introduced at. But competition has been moving away fast and the reliability problems haven't helped.

 

 

*) As an example, Profoto Air-TTL triggers are now available in Nikon, Canon, Sony, Olympus versions and the Fuji version has been announced for availability by year end; the Hassy X1D is compatible with the Nikon flash system so it can use the Nikon version of the Profoto trigger; the Phase One XF has a Profoto trigger built in the body -- where does Leica's pro system fit into this picture? Given the availability of leaf shutter lenses, the S system begs to be used with battery-powered strobes on location (like Profoto B1/B2), with dynamically moving subject, changing light levels etc. - so why can't I get a Leica Profoto TTL trigger? Easy opportunity wasted to score a point against competition....

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I posted this in another thread. Perhaps it's better here.

 

"It might be stretching a little far but maybe for a mirrorless S, Leica could really go compact, beyond what Hasselblad or Fujifilm is willing.

 

Perhaps Mirrorless S lenses could forego that flange to sensor distance of the original S and shrink to a SL flange to sensor distance. Start the "mirrorless S lenses" at f4 or f 5.6.

 

Or retain the S flange to sensor distance. Give them a larger image circle to allow use on the SL body with tilt / shift capabilities. After all some SL users are using Canon T/S lenses modded to their SL bodies.

 

Just a thought."

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Some S users are getting ansy and considering alternatives

 

 I'm sure that some are, but medium format shooters traditionally aren't as flighty as other photographers. It takes a lot to get them to replace one working system with another. Not only is the financial investment substantial, the time commitment is also huge.

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As an example, Profoto Air-TTL triggers are now available in Nikon, Canon, Sony, Olympus versions and the Fuji version has been announced for availability by year end; the Hassy X1D is compatible with the Nikon flash system so it can use the Nikon version of the Profoto trigger; the Phase One XF has a Profoto trigger built in the body -- where does Leica's pro system fit into this picture? Given the availability of leaf shutter lenses, the S system begs to be used with battery-powered strobes on location (like Profoto B1/B2), with dynamically moving subject, changing light levels etc. - so why can't I get a Leica Profoto TTL trigger? Easy opportunity wasted to score a point against competition....

 

It might not be easy for Leica to negotiate with Profoto but I do like a much better link with Profoto for my SL or any Leica camera for that matter. Even for the Sinar digital backs just to show the cohesive integrity of a system.

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 I'm sure that some are, but medium format shooters traditionally aren't as flighty as other photographers. It takes a lot to get them to replace one working system with another. Not only is the financial investment substantial, the time commitment is also huge.

 

True but new sales must be minimal and that for quite a while already...

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I will preface this with the fact I love the look of the S files. The Sensor/lens combo is unique and looks very pleasing.

 

But.

 

Bad build, bad reliability, bad service, bad resale, little to no development, expensive, low resolution and underperforming in other ways.

 

But i DO personally like the look of the pictures very much and have been holding off other plans to see how the S 008 develops, how Leica sorts out their service issues, but recently that interest has been waning.

 

There is no balance here though. There are just too many things preventing me from going down the path of the S and from my own experiences with Leica, the constant hassles and dramas, combined with the experiences en masse of others it's going to take something more than a few more megapickles to get me interested. All those hassles are not entertainable on your main work horse. I realise some have had good experiences and that is encouraging, but they are vastly outweighed.

 

It probably won't even come out until Photokina, at which time the new 100MP cropped sensors will be surfacing in systems that are looking more and more exciting by the day. Just IMO, Leica needs to pull a rabbit out of the hat with this and I really hope they can. Sooner, rather than later.

Edited by Paul J
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EVF al a the SL, or the S system is dead. Fuji and Hassy will bulldoze the future of MF with the S watching from a sad distance.

I'm not convinced. That's like claiming that Canon and Nikon are "dead" because of mirrorless. It hasn't happened yet (not by a long shot), and probably won't ever happen.

 

SLR and mirrorless technologies complement each other very well.

I can see Leica offering a more mass-market mirrorless S next time around (as opposed to the S30|45 which is targeted at studio/architecture shooters), while still offering an S (008) with the same general shape as the 007.

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