pico Posted June 18, 2017 Share #21 Posted June 18, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) [... silliness deleted ...] However, what I meant is that a monochrome camera, by bypassing the Bayer filtering and interpolation will give a far more detailed file - both in resolution and tonal values- than a converted colour one. A bare CMOS sensor has a peculiar color response curve with red being its greatest sensitivity, and violet the least. In other words, compared to most B&W films, the CMOS response is totally different. Totally! Sure, it has greater potential acutance, but over-the-lens filters are never, ever going to give one the tonal control for B&W that digital manipulation has. Acutance is not everything. And your remark about me being inexperienced (and young) is completely wrong. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 Hi pico, Take a look here Set up M9 for direct B&W. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
pico Posted June 18, 2017 Share #22 Posted June 18, 2017 (edited) [...]When the pixel pit received R light or interpreted as such (passed R Bayer filter) it only memorise as Red. Same as Green and Blue pixels that memorise only their "color". With a Bayer filter, it doesn't matter what filter an individual pixel captures. What matters is the algorithm that compares nearby pixels. Edited June 19, 2017 by pico Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 19, 2017 Share #23 Posted June 19, 2017 A bare CMOS sensor has a peculiar color response curve with red being its greatest sensitivity, and violet the least. In other words, compared to most B&W films, the CMOS response is totally different. Totally! Sure, it has greater potential acutance, but over-the-lens filters are never, ever going to give one the tonal control for B&W that digital manipulation has. Acutance is not everything. And your remark about me being inexperienced (and young) is completely wrong. Actually Leica tweaked the filter of the Monochrome sensor to resemble the tonal response of Delta 100 film. There were quite a few threads about it at the time the Monochrom1 came out, complete with shots of the G-M colour chart to compare. I seem to recall an article on Sean Reid's site in the subject -but my memory may be at fault.. As for your last sentence: Irony detector on the blink? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einst_Stein Posted June 19, 2017 Author Share #24 Posted June 19, 2017 >> When the pixel pit received R light or interpreted as such (passed R Bayer filter) it only memorise as Red. Not necessary maths/physics true though it's true in the current SW. The red pixel information can be convoluted with a proper impulse response function. The impulse function can expand the red color information to full spectrum according to the black body theory.This essentially convert (approximate or guestimate) the red pixel to full spectrum (the white light) like (somewhat close to) what the monochrome sensor received. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted June 19, 2017 Share #25 Posted June 19, 2017 .... according to the black body theory..... Black body theory applies to the emission spectrum of black bodies. I don't think there are many people photographing black bodies at various temperatures; usually, you will photograph things that reflect or emit mixtures of narrow banded coloured light. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwesi Posted June 19, 2017 Share #26 Posted June 19, 2017 All my B&Ws from M9 were done in Lightroom. When I want B&W, I usually do it in development. Set yo B&W, tune the color channels, contrast, etc. If I want to get the B&W directly out of the camera, what's the best setup ? You can set up Lightroom to autoconvert your M9 DNGs to b/w on import as a default for an M9 with a particular serial number only. This way other cameras are not affected. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ko.Fe. Posted June 19, 2017 Share #27 Posted June 19, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Actually Leica tweaked the filter of the Monochrome sensor to resemble the tonal response of Delta 100 film. There were quite a few threads about it at the time the Monochrom1 came out, complete with shots of the G-M colour chart to compare. I seem to recall an article on Sean Reid's site in the subject -but my memory may be at fault.. As for your last sentence: Irony detector on the blink? Now I know why I don't like BW from MM. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
honcho Posted July 4, 2017 Share #28 Posted July 4, 2017 Any digital camera will of course give good B&W but personally I dont like the look of straight B&W conversions that "scream" DIGITAL because the emphasis has been on maintaining a grain free image. There is more to an image than high resolution and being noise free - hard to put into words but there is a FEEL to how an image looks and the majority of digital B&W conversions just don't have it. It's not that hard to put into words because the success of the end result is mainly down to how the file is processed. I agree with the general thrust of your comments about digital mono conversions and sterile Monochrom images, but I think you'll find any old CCD camera such as a Nikon D2Hs will produce black and white images that are at least as good as M8 files and most are more versatile cameras than the M8. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 4, 2017 Share #29 Posted July 4, 2017 Jaapv I fully understand what you are saying about the Monochrom and a conventional colour digital camera BUT in my honest opinion the Leica M8 still gives the best B&W image from any digital camera that I know of. This is of course MY opinion and of course it is subjective and in fairness I don't like the noise free images produced by the Monochrom and will always add some grain in PP. The M8 shot as DNG then with PP in Silver FX gives to me the very best B&W - even better than the dedicated Monochrom. This isn't to say that the Monochrom isn't an excellent camera as it surely is but I personally just find the files too "chocolate boxy" and even after they have gone through Silver FX, I think that for the look that I want in photojournalism the M8 is better. For architecture I am sure that grain free very high resolution images are what is required so the reverse would no doubt be true but for me, I want my images to look and "feel" more TRI-X film like - for that look, I find that the M8 is actually superior. High resolution and noise free is not always the desired look and intangible "feel". "Gone through Silver Efex" That is exactly the problem. It is virtually impossible to like the results that it gives with the Monochrom 1. Many people expect too much from Out Of Camera and automated postprocessing. If properly processed, there is nothing digital about Monochrom 1 images, except that one cannot see which brand film it was, as it is different from both film and digital conversions - and much better IMO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 4, 2017 Share #30 Posted July 4, 2017 Impossible to tell from a Tri-X neg print. That is fine, but it begs the question why one did not use TRI-X in the first place. Trying to replicate the look of film is like trying to imitate an oil painting in Gouache. The whole point is that digital monochrome allows us to take the result beyond film prints. I have Baryta prints from the Monochrom that I would never have gotten from film and a wet process. Yes, I am talking about the MM1 as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
probert Posted July 4, 2017 Share #31 Posted July 4, 2017 Jaapv I agree that when put through Silver FX there is not much in it but I still think that the M8 images have the edge by having a more film like "feel" than the Monochrom even after the PP. Maybe that is the problem. The monochrom is not film and should not be compared with it. It is a different animal, with incredible quality in its own right. But the point is to let go of this old idea that film is a benchmark that has to be met by digital b&w. I think the idea of imitating film with artificial grain in a digital photo is silly. If you want grain and the 'feel'of film, use film. And if you want a high iso shot that is as smooth as can be with every shade of grey imaginable, use the monochrom. (I traded the monochrom V1 in for the V2 because I like it better). (and for the record: no, I am not too young to remember film. I grew up with it and published my first b&ws in the 1970s) 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
probert Posted July 4, 2017 Share #32 Posted July 4, 2017 I swap between film and digital all the time but I would confess to liking the more gritty feel of TRI-X over say the more polished look of Delta 100 or a T grain fast film such as Delta 400. Clearly, different tastes. When I bring film it is usually Delta100 or 400... But I agree that there is something about the feel of this that is different from digital and lovely in its own right. This is on Delta100: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/273530-set-up-m9-for-direct-bw/?do=findComment&comment=3308200'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 4, 2017 Share #33 Posted July 4, 2017 A very nice image, but it is of course impossible to tell the quality from the computer screen. I base my comments on A3+ prints. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
probert Posted July 4, 2017 Share #34 Posted July 4, 2017 A very nice image, but it is of course impossible to tell the quality from the computer screen. I base my comments on A3+ prints. Yes, but I guess that the difference with the same kind of thing from a monochrom is clear enough, even on a computer screen. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/273530-set-up-m9-for-direct-bw/?do=findComment&comment=3308225'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 4, 2017 Share #35 Posted July 4, 2017 Well, yes, it does not have the grain aliasing from the scan in the sky. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
probert Posted July 4, 2017 Share #36 Posted July 4, 2017 Yes, and even when you do a huge print the detail is mind boggling. So personally, I very much prefer digital over film. What I mostly miss of film is the magic of the chemistry. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
honcho Posted July 4, 2017 Share #37 Posted July 4, 2017 Clearly, different tastes. When I bring film it is usually Delta100 or 400... But I agree that there is something about the feel of this that is different from digital and lovely in its own right. This is on Delta100: I would have expected far less obvious grain and a wider range of tones from Delta 100, and definitely no blue cast (unless you have introduced that for some effect). What are you trying to demonstrate here? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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