Set up M9 for direct B&W

[Einst_Stein]

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All my B&Ws from M9 were done in Lightroom.  

When I want B&W, I usually do  it in development.

Set yo B&W, tune the color channels, contrast, etc.

 

If I want to get the B&W directly out of the camera, what's the best setup ?

[jmahto]

when I used M9, I used to set the JPEG in camera setting to black and white. This produced a very pleasing monochrome images along with DNG. Many a times I could not replicate in-camera produced B&W JPEG. They were so good.

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[pico]

If I want to get the B&W directly out of the camera, what's the best setup ?

 

What jmahto wrote. You cannot create B&W .dng files in the M9. JPEG will have to do if you want the defaults, which IMHO are not so good.

 

Best to continue post processing DNG to B&W as you like them.

.

[Einst_Stein]

Would you set up differently to get the DNG if B&W is the goal? 

[pico]

Would you set up differently to get the DNG if B&W is the goal? 

 

No, I would not because there is nothing we can do at that stage. Someone can correct me if wrong.

 

What you do in post processing is up to you and the options are impressive. I will give one simple example to get you started, and you may explore and others can contribute - in most post-processing there is the ability to apply color-contrast filters. This is somewhat like using a filter on a lens for B&W photography. If you like the outcome, great and if you do not, you can revert to try something else. Then there are layers to blend and mask for different filters, and it goes on and on beyond what is practical when using film and filters.

 

I hope this is enough to interest you and help some.

Edited June 16, 2017 by pico

[Einst_Stein]

Thanks for your sharing. I am very close to your suggestion.

However, If I just do simple conversion from color to white, without applying color channel manipulation, I dont get what out of Leica Monochrome. So I wonder what is the equivalent color channel manipulation in Leica.

Ideally, I hope I can find a standard flow to get the B&W just like Leica monochrome.

[Ko.Fe.]

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One of the reasons I prefer Leica for BW. Would it be M-E, M8 or even shared with Panasonic P&S. BW SOOC JPEG1 is good enough from all of them and even better after quick modification. I prefer ISO1250-1600 on M-E. 

 

From Moscow, with Love.

M-E ISO1250 in camera BW JPEG1 plus DxO. (official free version)

 

Raptors Home Game.

M-E larger bw JPEG1 ISO1600 and Silver Effex (also free version). Scan of the 8.5x11 inkjet print.

[Einst_Stein]

impressive. I like it. Thanks.

[Jager]

Thanks for your sharing. I am very close to your suggestion.

However, If I just do simple conversion from color to white, without applying color channel manipulation, I dont get what out of Leica Monochrome. So I wonder what is the equivalent color channel manipulation in Leica.

Ideally, I hope I can find a standard flow to get the B&W just like Leica monochrome.

 

Set your M9 to 'DNG + JPEG,' then go into the menu and set that Jpeg to black and white.  You'll then get two images from each shot, one your normal color DNG and the other a black and white jpeg.  The image reviews/playback that you see on your LCD will be black and white, so that will help in keeping you in a B&W frame of mind.

 

But that black and white image will in no sense be the same as a comparable image taken with a Leica Monochrom.  The M9 version will give you a highly compressed jpeg, versus the raw, unvarnished DNG the Monochrom provides.  But the M9 produces very good jpegs and you still have the color file to work with if you're after the very highest quality.

 

Don't let the jpeg thing dissuade you.  The M9 makes an excellent black and white camera!

[jaapv]

Thanks for your sharing. I am very close to your suggestion.

However, If I just do simple conversion from color to white, without applying color channel manipulation, I dont get what out of Leica Monochrome. So I wonder what is the equivalent color channel manipulation in Leica.

Ideally, I hope I can find a standard flow to get the B&W just like Leica monochrome.

You can get very good B&W out of just about any digital M. However, you can never match the quality of a Monochrom or B&W film.

The initial loss by the Bayer filter and interpolation will always make a difference.

[Einst_Stein]

Please bear with my ignorance. Why?

[pico]

Thanks for your sharing. I am very close to your suggestion.

However, If I just do simple conversion from color to white, without applying color channel manipulation, I dont get what out of Leica Monochrome. So I wonder what is the equivalent color channel manipulation in Leica.

Ideally, I hope I can find a standard flow to get the B&W just like Leica monochrome.

 

I can only refer to Photo Shop - there is an option to turn the image from color to monochrome.

.

[pico]

You can get very good B&W out of just about any digital M. However, you can never match the quality of a Monochrom or B&W film. [...]

 

I believe you and are of different religions, Jaap. The Leica Monochrom requires a color contrast filter to modulate the outcome, while digital modulations from color to B&W are profound and can use multiple color filters, layers, blends and masks beyond our wildest monochom dreams.

.

[jaapv]

Yes, Pico, I realise that you are too young to have learnt the use of colour filters in B&W photography.   But from the pinnacle of advanced age I can assure you that old methods can work quite well. And once you have controlled your basic tonal respose  by filter you can still work the Photoshop Magic that does not depend on colour channels

However, what I meant is that a monochrome camera, by bypassing the Bayer filtering and interpolation will give a far more detailed file - both in resolution and tonal values- than a converted colour one.

[a.noctilux]

Moiré .

 

And with the real Monochrome, never have moiré in any straight lines or pattern.

With M9 files converted to monochrome, those moiré are rendered ugly when visible even in b&w.

[Einst_Stein]

I am trying to understand the difference.

Without the colored filters, each pixel will get the full spectrum (within limit) light energy. This implies more energy per pixel .
The RGB or whatever colored filter will pass only part of the light spectrum (energy), for simplicity, let's just assume it is about 1/3 of the energy, so each pixel gets only 1/3 of the energy. => point 1: monochrome sensor should have about 3x more of ISO sensitivity.

However, each sensor may not have equal sensitivity to different colors. Maybe the red light is less sensitivity due to the longer wave length and the quantum effect?  There should be a built in colored filtering effect, even without the explicit colored filters. => qustions: anyone knows the quantitative values of these intrinsic color filters?

Once we know Leica Monochrome intrinsic color filter parameters, we should be able to match M9 to that to get the most matched b&w. 

But wait, there is one more Issue. It is about the true full spectrum vs. the synthetic full color. While we can use the RGB color elements to synthesize the almost full colors to fool our eyes, such as to synthesize the purple color or yellow color. After all, it is not the true full color. In another words, the brightness and gradation of the grey level from the Leica monochrome does not really match the grey level of the synthetic color.  

 

If we consider the black body effect, which says the full spectrum of a particular color (the color with a dominant wave length) has a predictable shape. This implies we might be able to reconstruct the full spectrum from a filtered if we know the dominant wavelength. If so, we might be able to get the Leica M monochrome equivalent (approximated) B&W from M9. 

Of course, these are only the abstracted math/physics, but in real life, does the difference really matter that much? I mean, are our eyes really that sensitive?

Edited June 18, 2017 by Einst_Stein

[pico]

Yes, Pico, I realise that you are too young to have learnt the use of colour filters in B&W photography. 

 

 

Flattery will get you nowhere, Jaap. Below is the face of a seventy-one year old. Moi. (Permission to post from photographer)

 

[jaapv]

I am trying to understand the difference.

 

Without the colored filters, each pixel will get the full spectrum (within limit) light energy. This implies more energy per pixel .

The RGB or whatever colored filter will pass only part of the light spectrum (energy), for simplicity, let's just assume it is about 1/3 of the energy, so each pixel gets only 1/3 of the energy. => point 1: monochrome sensor should have about 3x more of ISO sensitivity.

 

However, each sensor may not have equal sensitivity to different colors. Maybe the red light is less sensitivity due to the longer wave length and the quantum effect?  There should be a built in colored filtering effect, even without the explicit colored filters. => qustions: anyone knows the quantitative values of these intrinsic color filters?

 

Once we know Leica Monochrome intrinsic color filter parameters, we should be able to match M9 to that to get the most matched b&w. 

 

But wait, there is one more Issue. It is about the true full spectrum vs. the synthetic full color. While we can use the RGB color elements to synthesize the almost full colors to fool our eyes, such as to synthesize the purple color or yellow color. After all, it is not the true full color. In another words, the brightness and gradation of the grey level from the Leica monochrome does not really match the grey level of the synthetic color.  

 

If we consider the black body effect, which says the full spectrum of a particular color (the color with a dominant wave length) has a predictable shape. This implies we might be able to reconstruct the full spectrum from a filtered if we know the dominant wavelength. If so, we might be able to get the Leica M monochrome equivalent (approximated) B&W from M9. 

Of course, these are only the abstracted math/physics, but in real life, does the difference really matter that much? I mean, are our eyes really that sensitive?

You are forgetting some effects: the software will interpolate from the surrounding pixels to obtain the colour image. That will lose about 30% of all information/resolution. Furthermore, the Bayer filter will create optical aberrations, diffraction and refraction. The demosaicing algorithms will create aliasing and moiré. 

[Einst_Stein]

Jaapv, you may be right on the current SW. But that is not necessary true on the base of maths and physics.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[a.noctilux]

Moirée and aliasing can't be cured by software.

 

Maths or physics limited by the capture in pixels may not help when the light passed through Bayer filter (physical mosaic filter).

When the pixel pit received R light or interpreted as such (passed R Bayer filter) it only memorise as Red.

Same as Green and Blue pixels that memorise only their "color".

 

Moiré is physics and maths in software can't help if the Bayer filter is used.

 

In Monochrom, only levels of light hitting the pixel, so no moirée memorised on file.