Extent of MM1 corrosion problem?

[Etruscello]

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I am the original owner of an MM1, purchased 3 years ago, and am so satisfied with its performance that I would not even consider a trade to the MM2.  The sensor shows no sign of corrosion.  So what's my problem?

There is a Woody Allen movie in which he is told by a doctor that he does not have a brain tumor.  He is happy until he realizes that a brain tumor may show up during his next physical.  I worry that corrosion will show up some day and may do so when Leica has run out of new CCDs.  I would hate to have to trade to the latest MM.  I wish Leica would allow me to replace the CCD now, but I know that is not going to happen.

Does anyone know what percentage of MM1s develop the corrosion problem?  Is it possible that some MM1s will never develop the problem?  Is Leica's supply of new CCDs very limited?  My research indicates that Leica has been tight-lipped about the extent and degree of universality of the problem.  Does anyone have reliable information about my questions?  Would Leica ever answer these questions directly?  If so, whom should I write?

Thank you for any insights and information.  Tom

 

[Luke_Miller]

I have both the MM1 and M-246 and while I love both I find I love the MM1 more.  Mine has the replacement sensor.  Corrosion of the original sensor started within the first two years as did that of my M9.  In my case neither had ever been wet cleaned or exposed to moisture or humidity.  I don't think anyone outside of Leica has reliable data on the percentage of sensors that will experience corrosion.  Leica says only some will and a poll on another forum resulted in the majority of respondents not experiencing it.  If there is sharing of sensor replacement costs among the companies involved there may be non-disclosure agreements that prevent release of information. Anecdotally, most user corrosion posts seem to indicate it occurs sooner rather than later.  Most of the reports I've  seen since the change in replacement policy are of the "I never checked for corrosion before it since the replacement program was good indefinitely" variety.

 

So no one really knows.  Many seem to disbelieve Leica and assume all will fail eventually.  I'm somewhat amused by those who won't believe Leica's statement that most won't corrode, but are happy to believe Leica when it says the replacement sensor will not.

 

My opinion (for whatever it is worth) is that the longer one owns an original sensor that does not show signs of corrosion the less one has to be concerned.  

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[Etruscello]

Thank you, Luke.  Your response is reassuring and informative.  I did not know that Leica has stated that most won't corrode, nor had I seen the polls you referenced.

It does make sense to me that I have no firm basis to assume that a replacement sensor will not corrode.

I think I'll just be happy with my situation and do what I have to do when and if I have to act.  In the meantime, the MM1 in its perfect condition is precious.  Tom

[IkarusJohn]

Hi Tom,

 

I don't accept Leica's comment about the numbers of sensors affected for a number of reasons - (1) in most cases you need to go looking for it to find it, (2) when most people spot it, they don't know what it is, and (3) what data is the Leica comment based on. Furthmore, I haven't heard of any of the series 2 CCD sensors corroding.

 

Maybe my opinion is coloured by the failure of both my M9 and Monochrom sensors, but I see little in Luke's reassurance above that is based anything of substance. Then again, only Leica has the facts.

 

However, as your Monochrom is less than 5 years old, you do have some comfort. Like many of us here, your camera is fine and if your sensor does develop corrosion, Leica will fix it. At this stage, Leica has not said it will charge you the full price of replacement, nor has it announced that it won't replace the sensor at all (it has only done that with the LCD on the M8, as far as I know).

 

So, I would check your sensor every now and then (f 16, focused at infinity on a blue sky), buth otherwise get out and enjoy your camera. Mine's being fixed as a write this. It's getting new Leica leather, new firmware and a good checking. It's a keeper.

 

Cheers

John

Edited June 13, 2017 by IkarusJohn

[Luke_Miller]

.... but I see little in Luke's reassurance above that is based anything of substance. Then again, only Leica has the facts.

 

Since only Leica has the facts - none of the conjecture is based on anything of substance as you correctly point out.

[IkarusJohn]

Since only Leica has the facts - none of the conjecture is based on anything of substance as you correctly point out.

But, we do know here what's happening to forum members, and that seems inconsistent (to me) with what Leica says. Similarly, you will recall Leica's initial response to the problem was less than candid - they rather hoped the issue would go away if they ignored it. Pressure from here changed that position.

 

So, I guess I'm one of those who amuse you.

[Guest]

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My Monochrom 1 is approx 2 years old and as of today is on its way back to Germany for a new sensor. My M9 which is about 5 years old has also gone with it.The sensor on the M9 looks as if it had small pox.6 Months ago both cameras where OK.

Both had been wet cleaned by Leica in London.

I have an M8.2 which while not being full frame allows me to use it for colour and black and white,plus my Panasonic LX100. Personally I have a gut feeling that all these sensors will eventually fail. I am that impressed with Leica on the broken promise to replace sensors free of charge that the money I had for a M10 has just been used towards a new Hi Fi system.

[IkarusJohn]

My Monochrom 1 is approx 2 years old and as of today is on its way back to Germany for a new sensor. My M9 which is about 5 years old has also gone with it.The sensor on the M9 looks as if it had small pox.6 Months ago both cameras where OK.

Both had been wet cleaned by Leica in London.

I have an M8.2 which while not being full frame allows me to use it for colour and black and white,plus my Panasonic LX100. Personally I have a gut feeling that all these sensors will eventually fail. I am that impressed with Leica on the broken promise to replace sensors free of charge that the money I had for a M10 has just been used towards a new Hi Fi system.

While Leica's change in policy is annoying, it won't dent my pleasure in my Monochrom. It may cost me to repair it in the future, but I will keep using it, and repairing it until it dies. Great camera.

[Guest]

While Leica's change in policy is annoying, it won't dent my pleasure in my Monochrom. It may cost me to repair it in the future, but I will keep using it, and repairing it until it dies. Great camera.

I agree with you and we all make our own choices.In my case I just think I have given Leica enough money over the years and enough is enough. When my Cameras come back I will continue to use and enjoy them but as for M10 etc I will definitly give it a miss.

[quadraticadder]

While Leica's change in policy is annoying, it won't dent my pleasure in my Monochrom. It may cost me to repair it in the future, but I will keep using it, and repairing it until it dies. Great camera.

 

I have to say, Leica's recent change in policy took some enjoyment from owning the MM1.  I sent an email to Leica USA a few weeks ago asking about the upgrade program and have not heard a response.  This is also taking enjoyment out of it.  In my opinion, Leica is dropping the ball.  

Best,

Steve

[james.liam]

Tom, rather than agonize like Woody Allen (in real-life he married his girl friend's adopted daughter so I don't think he really agonizes that much) let Leica examine the sensor before the deadline because they may see corrosion you cannot detect.

Edited June 17, 2017 by james.liam

[Etruscello]

Thanks for your advice, James. Do you -- or anyone else -- think Leica will put in a new sensor without clear evidence of corrosion? Tom

[jaapv]

Leica will not replace a sensor that is not corroded (well, maybe at cost, but not under the present nor future program).

Prophylactic replacement is not offered.

[mwilliamsphotography]

I bought my M Monochrome in late 2012. It didn't develop corrosion (that I could see in prints or on sensor) until late 2016. I first noticed it on some prints I did in very early 2017 that were taken in December 2016. By spring 2017 it was awful and looked like a crystalized growth spreading over the sensor so I sent it in! Leica replaced the sensor, all cover leather, and sent it back looking like new ... with no fanfare, only a cryptic document that barely acknowledged anything was done. But it was obvious that it was taken care of ... for free.

 

This camera is my "go to" for much personal work, and keeps me connected with my own past ... which centered around film Ms using only B&W film for 40+ years.

 

Keep an eagle eye on the sensor performance, and at the first sign of corrosion send it in. That's all you can do.

 

- Marc  

[Luke_Miller]

I bought my M Monochrome in late 2012. It didn't develop corrosion (that I could see in prints or on sensor) until late 2016. I first noticed it on some prints I did in very early 2017 that were taken in December 2016. By spring 2017 it was awful and looked like a crystalized growth spreading over the sensor so I sent it in!

 My experience is that by the time the corrosion begins to be seen in prints or by visually examining the sensor it is pretty far advanced.  With my M9 and MM I was never able to see the corrosion with my lighted sensor magnifier.  Nor did it show at normal apertures on computer screen or in prints.  I had to shoot a clear sky at small apertures in order to see it.  In your case I suspect the corrosion started far earlier than the date you first became aware of it.

 

I urge everyone with an original sensor to actively check for corrosion by shooting a small aperture image of a clear sky and then carefully examining for spots that won't move with a sensor brush or Rocket Blower.  If you see them take advantage of Leica's free inspection and cleaning.  If you wait for the corrosion to reveal itself in your images it may be after August 15 and you will have to pay part of the replacement cost.

[quadraticadder]

I have to say, Leica's recent change in policy took some enjoyment from owning the MM1.  I sent an email to Leica USA a few weeks ago asking about the upgrade program and have not heard a response.  This is also taking enjoyment out of it.  In my opinion, Leica is dropping the ball.  

Best,

Steve

 

I did hear back from Leica and I'm happy with the response.  

Best,

Steve

[james.liam]

I urge everyone with an original sensor to actively check for corrosion by shooting a small aperture image of a clear sky and then carefully examining for spots that won't move with a sensor brush or Rocket Blower.  If you see them take advantage of Leica's free inspection and cleaning.  If you wait for the corrosion to reveal itself in your images it may be after August 15 and you will have to pay part of the replacement cost.

 

1+

The only sensible thing to do before August because you might not detect it; mine had a spot dead center in the frame and was hard to miss. Take an image of the open sky at f/16 and you can always forward it to Leica for their call. Everyone harps about Leica NJ; whenever I've called, they pick up immediately or return the call. I was fortunate enough to live near enough to their location and brought in the body for them to examine. Took 15 minutes and they confirmed it. Pondering is pointless; have it examined before it's too late.

Edited June 22, 2017 by james.liam

[LeicaPassion]

I called Leica New Jersey today. They said to send in the body for inspection. The current wait time for sensor replacement (MM1) is 20 months. If the sensor is okay, the turnaround time is a couple of weeks.

[IkarusJohn]

20 months? Surely not!

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Hallo,

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[LeicaPassion]

My blunder. 20 weeks. Thanks for catching it.