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S 006 or S 007 - today


BigBabyEarl

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Hello forum. I sold my S 007 awhile back for financial reasons. I also was concerned it was going to drop a lot in value with the AF concerns. It wasn't easy to sell btw. However, I miss the images and now there's an AF fix. I have seen some great 006 price and the 007 used can be found, but at nearly double the cost. My question is given a choice would you go for a 006 with its max iso of 1600 (usable with b&w conversions / noise reduction), CCD look, clean files at 400 OR the 007 with usable files up to 3200, live view, more dynamic range, etc. Help is appreciated.

 

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I think that cost and value decision is up to you, especially given that you sold the system once. Which features are most important for you is also personal I think. I can comment on my experience
I shot maybe 15 000 frames with my (third hand) S2, about 2 000 with a loaned 006 and now approaching 20 000 with my 007. Nearly everything in studio.

For me the 006 has very useful improvements over the S2 (especially in handling and performance (buffer, controls/menus for example) as you might expect from the lessons learnt in the design and feedback, although the images just look the same.

For me the 007 is just superior in every way. Mine did in fact just go back to Wetzlar for what I thought was just a CF card latch fix. It proved to need adjustment and repair from reported to me suspected shock and liquids exposure although these have never happened in use or handling by me. The whole back of the camera was replaced for button 'stickiness' although I never noticed that in use. Studio hand held and tripod, stored and transported in a roller case, chocolate biscuit fingers occasionally! no spills. That is a concern for me on general robustness of the system. In saying that the camera is perfectly adjusted and perfectly clean and I have an additional 12 months warranty as if camera new.
I also sent my S2 for what I thought was a problem with some cards . That proved to be my error (cards wrongly formatted)  and Wetzlar  cleaned, checked and adjusted it for me at no additional charge over the Typ 007 repair.

As an aside my same two lenses (70Cs and Summarit 120) have been used for nearly all of those ~37000 or so exposures so far and continue to be problem free. I don't intend to send them for pre-emptive AF upgrade.

Edited by hoppyman
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I think that cost and value decision is up to you, especially given that you sold the system once. Which features are most important for you is also personal I think. I can comment on my experience

I shot maybe 15 000 frames with my (third hand) S2, about 2 000 with a loaned 006 and now approaching 20 000 with my 007. Nearly everything in studio.

For me the 006 has very useful improvements over the S2 (especially in handling and performance (buffer, controls/menus for example) as you might expect from the lessons learnt in the design and feedback, although the images just look the same.

For me the 007 is just superior in every way. Mine did in fact just go back to Wetzlar for what I thought was just a CF card latch fix. It proved to need adjustment and repair from reported to me suspected shock and liquids exposure although these have never happened in use or handling by me. The whole back of the camera was replaced for button 'stickiness' although I never noticed that in use. Studio hand held and tripod, stored and transported in a roller case, chocolate biscuit fingers occasionally! no spills. That is a concern for me on general robustness of the system. In saying that the camera is perfectly adjusted and perfectly clean and I have an additional 12 months warranty as if camera new.

I also sent my S2 for what I thought was a problem with some cards . That proved to be my error (cards wrongly formatted)  and Wetzlar  cleaned, checked and adjusted it for me at no additional charge over the Typ 007 repair.

As an aside my same two lenses (70Cs and Summarit 120) have been used for nearly all of those ~37000 or so exposures so far and continue to be problem free. I don't intend to send them for pre-emptive AF upgrade.

 

Thank you. So coming from the 006 you didn't miss the color? The benefit of higher ISO is appreciated, but 800-1600 isn't bad. I guess the big sticking point is a 006 is around $5500 used and the 007 is $12k used. That and people seem to like the CCD colors more.

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Well in fact I used the Typ 006 only as a loan while my own S2 and Typ 007 were in Wetzlar. So I have only shoot perhaps 2500 frames with one (over two loans and circumstances bright midday sun and studio (mainly)
So my practical comparison is more from S2 to Typ 007.
I have never profiled either S, using the Adobe Standard with my DNG files. Although I have read a number of times that users found the CCD results preferable, I have just never seen a great difference (in my shoot styles). I got to discuss this with Darren Centofanti who is a very successful professional fashion shoot who used the S2 prior to the Typ 007. I was pleased when he said that he only found a small difference too, shifting a little green I believe. I think that the difference is much less marked than say from the M9 to the Typ 240  but for all of them, the default rendering is just a starting point for developing to your personal taste. on higher ISO capability only a very tiny percentage of my shots with the S system have not been at base ISO. Other cameras are better tools there in my opinion (one is the SL ;-) )
On price you are on your own on what is value I think! Maybe if you had a definite budget and the Typ 006 allowed you to get another lens sooner? ... For me I just cant go past the handling and improvements that came with the Typ 007.

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Another consideration is related to the time of release of an updated/upgraded version of the S-body. I would think S008 (or whatever) will come sooner than later, followed by some reduction in the cost of used 007-bodies.

 

As a primary SL-shooter I ended up purchasing a used 006 with a new sensor. I think this body will serve my use for quite some time. Pending on whats coming next, I may keep the 006, upgrade to 007 or - possibly - buing into the new S.

 

Continuing with speculation, if the new S-body inherits some/many/most of the options of the excellent SL - the S-system will be very interesting. Ignoring the cost of the new S-body, for the time being...

Edited by helged
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I switched from the S006 to the S007, later I thought I miss the S006 and bought back my S006 for a decent price.

However I allways use the S007. I shoot handheld and it just helps to have more freedom in regards of choice of f-stop and getting short exposure times to have the flexibility of higher ISO. Also a little more DR and the camera feels somewhat faster.

If this is enough reason to spend the extra money depends on you.

For tripod shooters or studio-light shooters maybe not much of an issued, for me as someone using the S007 for private/casual things (my kids, landscape handhold things like that) the S007 extended the range of images I can use the S007 for. I do admit though that I also use the SL a lot for such things now.

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Ok. So let's say the prices continue to come down for the 007 (they will)- given a choice on a level playing field which is preferable? It seems like the cmos 007 gives you better DR and higher ISO but at a cost of duller colors. The CCD 006 seems to really sing, but just tops out two stops slower than the 007. Is this correct?

Edited by BigBabyEarl
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Sure as H*ll not seeing the duller colours here! I think that impression is much too simple and generic to judge with...But processed how? which rendering? Which profiling etc?
I agree that the prices on used S bodies will likely continue to come down whenever a new model arrives on the market. I think that describes every production camera ever!
 

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Sorry. I didn't mean that the colors on the 007 are duller vs the 006. In the correct hands because of the increased DR the nuances between the two sensors can matched. Yes, with profiles, experience, etc I do think any camera can sing. However, I'm no pro, just someone learning. In that case, to steer to my question- given the two cameras are more obtainable now (one being really a great price) would you choose a 006 with its CCD sensor and lose out on usable up 3200 iso with the 007? Would you favor a CCD file up to 800 iso that is to many a favorable image to play with or do you go for freedom a CMOS 3200 iso can give you? Fat M9 vs Fat M240 hahaha. No seriously, not trying to be that guy- just curious from actual users what matters most.

Edited by BigBabyEarl
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At the same price, I would have gone 007. When I had the opportunity to get an 006 at a very low price with warranty, I took it and have been (very) happy with the results. I just took the 006, 24, and 70 on a 10 day hiking vacation and almost never felt the lack of higher ISO. I could have brought the SL, but just preferred the (heavier) S system output.

 

At current levels, 006 for $4K and 007 for $9-10K, It's a lot closer, but I'd still go 006 and hope for an 008 and an understanding spouse.

 

I've had very good results from 007 files, but skin tone takes a bit more care. The 006 seems immune from unnatural redness, and I had to desaturate red on the 007 more frequently, but it's not a big deal (this was an early 007 profile - it may not be an issue at all now). They both do great on landscapes. I would NOT say 007 colors are duller - on the contrary.

 

--Matt

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The S007 is (besides the S006) the camera where I get the best colors without much/any postprocessing.

I would worry too much about the CCD vs CMOS discussion. I went back and forth 2 times between M9-M240-M9-M262-M10, S006-S007, sold S006, rebought S006 just to find out it collects dust.

As soon as you photograph a lot handheld it helps a lot to have short exposure times to avoid "micro" shake which decreases sharpness.

With the Soo6 I often didnt have the choice to stop down for more DOF because exp time would become too long, with the S007 I have more freedom in this regard.

I wonder if I took the same portraits with a S006 and a S007 if people could tell which is which. I dont think they could.

My vote goes for S007 if you can afford it.

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Sorry. I didn't mean that the colors on the 007 are duller vs the 006. In the correct hands because of the increased DR the nuances between the two sensors can matched. Yes, with profiles, experience, etc I do think any camera can sing. However, I'm no pro, just someone learning. In that case, to steer to my question- given the two cameras are more obtainable now (one being really a great price) would you choose a 006 with its CCD sensor and lose out on usable up 3200 iso with the 007? Would you favor a CCD file up to 800 iso that is to many a favorable image to play with or do you go for freedom a CMOS 3200 iso can give you? Fat M9 vs Fat M240 hahaha. No seriously, not trying to be that guy- just curious from actual users what matters most.

BigBabyEarl, no I would not choose the 006 for MY style and preferences. I am no pro either, I just love to shoot a lot and the studio stuff is nearly everything I do. I can tell you one specific feature of the Typ 006 that I disliked a lot when having a loaner (I checked I shot about 3000 frames with it because these fashion things typically run to 600-1000 or so frames in a half day the way I work.. the rear screen just would not look anything like the exposure preview that I was very used to using to help judge with my Typ 007.

You meant thinner M9 (or (M10?) vs. fatter Typ 240 I think . The upgrade to the Typ 240 was compelling for me too and if I actually used my M stuff any more I would love to have the M10.. I shot about 20,000 frames or so with my M. Now I am trying to learn the SL so yeah I am not the right guy to ask whether you should save money!

Edited by hoppyman
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I have not used the 007, so I cannot comment on how it compares to 006. However, for me the longer exposure time on the 006 is important, and I use a tripod most of the time. If you do not care about exposures longer than 60 seconds and prefer handheld, go for the 007. You would probably like the extra stops for shutter speed purposes.

 

The S system overall is a versatile system. I use my M-P 240 infrequently because I like using the S so much.

Jesse

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I have a 007 recently acquired with the manufacturing date of January 2017, my three lenses the 100, 70 CS and 35 CS also have 2017 dates as their off-the-factory excursion. I've spoken to Leica Stores both corporate and private dealers, and they all say the 007 is the better option. No matter how much I like the CCD look I will tell you why I have started to think the same.

 

This brings me back to the M, so bear with me. (I am also going to ignore the AF issues, because frankly they aren't as major as everyone seems to think.)

 

 

 

Let me start by saying I am a fan of the 006, S2 and S2P. CCD technology worked for many years, it still works the way it was intended and nothing more. However you start to see failures in the technology after awhile, this also includes the design of the S series cameras in general, since that form factor has not changed since its inception date as a product. Improvements, yes, but the form is the same: A SLR type medium format option that has AF lenses that need upgrades, and occasionally a global solution to keep it doing what it says it is supposed to do. You will get that with ANY of the S series cameras, the 006 and 007 included. Just realize how NEW this system really is in comparison to say a Hassy.

 

My problem with CCD technology is it works GREAT for a while then it starts to degrade. Batteries, sensors, surrounding materials covering the sensors etc. Now let's look at the M8, M9, original Monochrome and then the 006. Since I have all of these cameras, still in use for different things, I can tell you exactly how I feel about them. I will say this about my CCD M cameras, I have a STACK of batteries that have various levels of maximum charge. Since the 006 and the 007 share a batterie type, and there was an upgrade, you may not have this issue. But I will conjecture you will have OTHER issues. The CCD cameras are almost impossibly outclassed by almost EVERY other camera when it comes to just being able to take a photo. Here's why:

 

1) a CCD eats battery life.

2) a CCD doesn't have adequate light sensitivity for every situation, in fact it needs so much power to get 

3) a CCD tends to STAY expensive to upkeep.

4) a CCD while creating amazing renders, doesn't have as much leeway in the files to draw out images in the dark.

6) a Leica CCD doesn't come as close to using the full potential of the expensive glass attached to it.

 

YES, the CCD renders color better than MOST CMOS sensors, especially skin tones.

YES, the CCD creates phenomenal images right out of the camera, but without an AA filter so do MOST CMOS sensors.

YES, there is SOMETHING magical about a medium format CCD sensor - but you have to TAKE SPECIAL CARE of it to keep it going.

 

If you are PREPARED to baby your camera after awhile, then go with the 006. Fair warning if you do: you will likely send it to the shop 3-5 times.

If you want to actually be capable of doing many many things with your camera, the 007 is the correct addition to your workflow.

 

My 2¢

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