Leica Syndrome

[haljaberi]

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I am looking for Leica M Film Camera. I own typ262 , but there's something special about these Leica M with Film. I need your advice which one you recommend most as new or used,

 

Thanks

 

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[LucisPictor]

The M7 is fantastic, if an "electronic" cam is OK for you.

The M4-P is IMHO an amazing mechanical camera for still a pretty good price. (That was the model I planned to buy.)

The M6 is my favourites one. And that's the one I finally got.

 

The MP is considered to be excellent, but it's pretty expensive compared to the other models and I do not have personal experiences with it. 

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[haljaberi]

The M7 is fantastic, if an "electronic" cam is OK for you.

The M4-P is IMHO an amazing mechanical camera for still a pretty good price. (That was the model I planned to buy.)

The M6 is my favourites one. And that's the one I finally got.

 

The MP is considered to be excellent, but it's pretty expensive compared to the other models and I do not have personal experiences with it.

Now what I am going to miss if I buy M6 over MP. Are all Leica film similar in spec and output?

 

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[jaapv]

They are all differnt in spec and the same in output. I prefer the M6 classic.

[haljaberi]

They are all differnt in spec and the same in output. I prefer the M6 classic.

Just an inquiry, is there a guide how to buy used Leica M body?

 

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[IkarusJohn]

I'd just make a spreadsheet to work out the differences, and decide what is important to you. Age? Framelines? Meter? A function? Electronic shutter?

 

A lot of this is, frankly, dancing on the head of a pin. I like mechanical, so I bought an M-A. An M4-P would be very similar (as I understand it).

 

Once you get into film, a purely mechanical Leica is a real pleasure to use.

[spydrxx]

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I had an M4 for about 43 years and loved it. Also had an M6 for about 4 years and hated it. Recently I've been using an M2 and an old Barnack iif and loving both. If it is a rangefinder thing rather than a pure Leica thing, there are lots of good screwmount bodies out there, some great ones, and some losers, which can use vintage Leica lenses (such as the Canon P or Nicca/Tower versions). For some interesting reading, visit the www.cameraqest.com website and read the sections on Classic Camera Profiles, the Leica bodies and lenses sections, and pre-1972 Japanese Leica copies. It will either confuse you or open your eyes to some of the "opportunities" in Leica and Leica type cameras (I've not even mentioned former Soviet Union FSU knockoffs, as their construction can be irregular, and not up to Leica standards).

[haljaberi]

I'd just make a spreadsheet to work out the differences, and decide what is important to you. Age? Framelines? Meter? A function? Electronic shutter?

 

A lot of this is, frankly, dancing on the head of a pin. I like mechanical, so I bought an M-A. An M4-P would be very similar (as I understand it).

 

Once you get into film, a purely mechanical Leica is a real pleasure to use.

For me the exposure meter is a must to have.

 

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[philipus]

http://www.halfhill.com/leica1.html

 

http://www.halfhill.com/leica2.html

 

http://www.dantestella.com/technical/rangefinder.html

 

http://www.japancamerahunter.com/2012/04/leica-buyers-guide/

[jaapv]

Basically the M film cameras can be divided into - those without a meter  MP (original)  - M2 -  M3 - M4 - M4-2 - M4P - MA and those with a built in meter  M5 - M6 - M7 - MP.

 

Other than the meter they all operate in same way with the exception being the M7 that has automatic exposure and an electronic shutter. 

 

The M5 is physically bigger and a different shape to all other M cameras as it was the 1st attempt by Leica to build a meter into the camera body. It has a CDS cell mounted on an arm in front of the shutter and when the shutter release is pressed the meter swings out of the light path. At the time it was made it wasn't very successful as it was seen to be too big and a radical change in shape from the M4. Today though they have a almost cult status and used prices reflect this as the camera is much more sought after and valued than it once was. 

 

In practical use there is little difference other than the framelines which differ between cameras in the lenses covered and the distance at which they are accurate ie 1m or 2m. The M3 has the longest base rangefinder and is probably the best of all the M's with the 50mm lens but again in practical use any M will focus the 50mm with great accuracy - just that the M3 is in theory the best.

 

They are all built to a very high standard and are a joy to use being robust and jewel like in operation.

 

The best bargain IMHO is the M4-P which is often described as the meterless M6 because other than having the meter the two cameras are identical. The M4-P was predominantly made in Canada after the demise of the M5 and followed on the M4-2 which was also made in Canada and is the camera that is credited with saving the company from bankruptcy. The M4-2 unfairly has a reputation for not being as well made as the Wetzlar models but this is more a collectors opinion and again in practical use there are lots and lots of M4-2's that have been totally trouble free without any problems.

 

The M6 is basically a M4-P with a LED meter built into the body. The meter display is two red LED triangles at the bottom of the viewfinder that vary in brightness according to the exposure with the tip of the either triangle pointing to the way that the aperture should be turned to get correct exposure which is indicated by each triangle having the same brightness. A lot harder to explain than use. The camera has an mechanical shutter and is only dependant on batteries for the meter operation. The batteries are housed at the location where the self timer was on previous Wetzlar M cameras. 

 

The M7 relies on batteries to operate the electronic shutter but other than a few differences works in the same way.

 

The MP is very similar to the M6 but has the older rewind knob instead of the rewind crank that was introduced on the M4. The meter of the MP has the two red LED triangles that indicate the direction to turn the lens aperture but has a third round  red LED that lights to indicate correct exposure.

 

There are other cosmetic differences with the M6 top plate being made of zinc and the MP made of brass. The MP is either black painted or silver chrome whereas the M6 is either silver chrome or as with the M4-2 and M4P black chrome.

 

The black paint wears off in use to reveal the brass metal below and the black chrome doesn't wear off but well used M6's have a silvery sheen to the black.

 

The MA is basically a modern MP minus the meter and is finished in either silver or black chrome - it has the MP type rewind knob.

 

In summary ALL the M cameras are excellent and it really comes down to personal preference and how you feel about the camera as they are very similar in actual use so I would say that TO ME and this is only my opinion it boils down to this:-

 

1. The original Wetzlar M cameras M3 (the first M)   M2  and  M4 are built uncompromisingly from an age where excellence was taken for granted.  The M3 and M2 use the old Barnack screw Leica method of loading with a removable spool but of course with the opening camera back so are easier to load than a screw Leica. The M4 introduced the quick load spool on a large scale production Leica M (a few M2's were made with this quick load system but far more common are the original removable spool type loading cameras). The M2 is probably the more user friendly M over the original M3 as it has framelines for 35mm 50mm and 90mm and only shows ONE frameline at a time so it has a gorgeous uncluttered viewfinder. The M3 has framelines for 50mm 90mm and 135mm. The 50mm frameline is always visible with the 90mm and 135mm framelines showing in the middle of the 50mm lines. There is NO 35mm framelines so for anything wider than a 50mm either a goggled lens or external viewfinder has to be used. My recommendation between the M2 and M3 would be get the M2 for a more user friendly camera that can be used with the classic 35mm - 50mm - 90mm lens combination without having to use some other viewfinder arrangement. Get the M3 if you want to use the 50mm lens and longer 90mm and 135mm with a more accurate rangefinder for those lenses. 

 

2. For the most cost effective and not collector priced M camera get the M4-P but remember that it doesn't have a meter.

 

3. For a good working modern M get the M6 - it has the same framelines as the M4-P in pairs for 28mm - 90mm   35mm - 135mm   50mm - 75mm lenses and has the electronic LED meter built into the body.

 

4. For a much more expensive but gorgeous looking camera get the MP in black paint with (to me) the lovely original Leica engraving on the top plate. Just bear in mind that this camera is really a spruced up M6 with the older REWIND KNOB and a slightly different meter display.

 

5. For a new M camera then get the MA which is basically the MP without meter or get an M7 if you want automatic exposure but just bear in mind that this camera has an electronic shutter (with mechanical back up of 1/60 1/125). The M7 also has DX film speed coding.

 

 

Overall best M camera TO ME would be a Leica M2 because they are plentiful and not overly expensive SH. Have an uncluttered viewfinder with the classic 35mm 50mm and 90mm framelines. Superb original Leica build quality. Can be universally repaired CLA'd without any complex electronic bits that only Leica can repair or replace.

 

Second choice would be the Leica M4-P - a truly superb camera that can be bought "cheaply" as it's not considered to be a collectors piece.

 

Third choice - the Leica MP because it's a gorgeous camera to use and look at - but you will pay a premium for the privilege!! 

 

So that would be my assessment of the M cameras BUT remember that ANY M will be a great camera and differences other than the M5 are minimal and really down to personal preference.

Excellent summary, Paul. I would like to point out that you left out the M6TTL, which added TTL flash, at the price of a taller body. IMO the camera to avoid, apart from the slightly unbalanced design it has the least attractive viewfinder of the bunch as it tends to flare occasionally.

[Theodor Heinrichsohn]

Basically the M film cameras can be divided into - those without a meter  MP (original)  - M2 -  M3 - M4 - M4-2 - M4P - MA and those with a built in meter  M5 - M6 - M7 - MP.

 

Other than the meter they all operate in same way with the exception being the M7 that has automatic exposure and an electronic shutter. 

 

The M5 is physically bigger and a different shape to all other M cameras as it was the 1st attempt by Leica to build a meter into the camera body. It has a CDS cell mounted on an arm in front of the shutter and when the shutter release is pressed the meter swings out of the light path. At the time it was made it wasn't very successful as it was seen to be too big and a radical change in shape from the M4. Today though they have a almost cult status and used prices reflect this as the camera is much more sought after and valued than it once was. 

 

In practical use there is little difference other than the framelines which differ between cameras in the lenses covered and the distance at which they are accurate ie 1m or 2m. The M3 has the longest base rangefinder and is probably the best of all the M's with the 50mm lens but again in practical use any M will focus the 50mm with great accuracy - just that the M3 is in theory the best.

 

They are all built to a very high standard and are a joy to use being robust and jewel like in operation.

 

The best bargain IMHO is the M4-P which is often described as the meterless M6 because other than having the meter the two cameras are identical. The M4-P was predominantly made in Canada after the demise of the M5 and followed on the M4-2 which was also made in Canada and is the camera that is credited with saving the company from bankruptcy. The M4-2 unfairly has a reputation for not being as well made as the Wetzlar models but this is more a collectors opinion and again in practical use there are lots and lots of M4-2's that have been totally trouble free without any problems.

 

The M6 is basically a M4-P with a LED meter built into the body. The meter display is two red LED triangles at the bottom of the viewfinder that vary in brightness according to the exposure with the tip of the either triangle pointing to the way that the aperture should be turned to get correct exposure which is indicated by each triangle having the same brightness. A lot harder to explain than use. The camera has an mechanical shutter and is only dependant on batteries for the meter operation. The batteries are housed at the location where the self timer was on previous Wetzlar M cameras. 

 

The M7 relies on batteries to operate the electronic shutter but other than a few differences works in the same way.

 

The MP is very similar to the M6 but has the older rewind knob instead of the rewind crank that was introduced on the M4. The meter of the MP has the two red LED triangles that indicate the direction to turn the lens aperture but has a third round  red LED that lights to indicate correct exposure.

 

There are other cosmetic differences with the M6 top plate being made of zinc and the MP made of brass. The MP is either black painted or silver chrome whereas the M6 is either silver chrome or as with the M4-2 and M4P black chrome.

 

The black paint wears off in use to reveal the brass metal below and the black chrome doesn't wear off but well used M6's have a silvery sheen to the black.

 

The MA is basically a modern MP minus the meter and is finished in either silver or black chrome - it has the MP type rewind knob.

 

In summary ALL the M cameras are excellent and it really comes down to personal preference and how you feel about the camera as they are very similar in actual use so I would say that TO ME and this is only my opinion it boils down to this:-

 

1. The original Wetzlar M cameras M3 (the first M)   M2  and  M4 are built uncompromisingly from an age where excellence was taken for granted.  The M3 and M2 use the old Barnack screw Leica method of loading with a removable spool but of course with the opening camera back so are easier to load than a screw Leica. The M4 introduced the quick load spool on a large scale production Leica M (a few M2's were made with this quick load system but far more common are the original removable spool type loading cameras). The M2 is probably the more user friendly M over the original M3 as it has framelines for 35mm 50mm and 90mm and only shows ONE frameline at a time so it has a gorgeous uncluttered viewfinder. The M3 has framelines for 50mm 90mm and 135mm. The 50mm frameline is always visible with the 90mm and 135mm framelines showing in the middle of the 50mm lines. There is NO 35mm framelines so for anything wider than a 50mm either a goggled lens or external viewfinder has to be used. My recommendation between the M2 and M3 would be get the M2 for a more user friendly camera that can be used with the classic 35mm - 50mm - 90mm lens combination without having to use some other viewfinder arrangement. Get the M3 if you want to use the 50mm lens and longer 90mm and 135mm with a more accurate rangefinder for those lenses. 

 

2. For the most cost effective and not collector priced M camera get the M4-P but remember that it doesn't have a meter.

 

3. For a good working modern M get the M6 - it has the same framelines as the M4-P in pairs for 28mm - 90mm   35mm - 135mm   50mm - 75mm lenses and has the electronic LED meter built into the body.

 

4. For a much more expensive but gorgeous looking camera get the MP in black paint with (to me) the lovely original Leica engraving on the top plate. Just bear in mind that this camera is really a spruced up M6 with the older REWIND KNOB and a slightly different meter display.

 

5. For a new M camera then get the MA which is basically the MP without meter or get an M7 if you want automatic exposure but just bear in mind that this camera has an electronic shutter (with mechanical back up of 1/60 1/125). The M7 also has DX film speed coding.

 

 

Overall best M camera TO ME would be a Leica M2 because they are plentiful and not overly expensive SH. Have an uncluttered viewfinder with the classic 35mm 50mm and 90mm framelines. Superb original Leica build quality. Can be universally repaired CLA'd without any complex electronic bits that only Leica can repair or replace.

 

Second choice would be the Leica M4-P - a truly superb camera that can be bought "cheaply" as it's not considered to be a collectors piece.

 

Third choice - the Leica MP because it's a gorgeous camera to use and look at - but you will pay a premium for the privilege!! 

 

So that would be my assessment of the M cameras BUT remember that ANY M will be a great camera and differences other than the M5 are minimal and really down to personal preference.

 

 

Excellent and detailed information. Congratulations. I can only add that my PERSONAL preference is the M5.  I have used many bodies incl. Leica II, a gift from my father

that started it all, IIIf, IIIg, M3, M2, M4, M5, M6, M7, and the digital bodies M8, M9, M240 and SL. I have and use the II, the IIIg, M6, M7 and M5 as well as the M240 and SL.

My film body preference is the M5 because of the range finder. I like the easily visible cross hairs of the exposure meter, which makes it easy to judge accurate exposure as well as to estimate the degree of under or over exposure desired. I also like the fact that the exposure time appears in the finder at the left bottom. One cross hair moves with the

exposure time and the second moves with the the measured light. When both coincide on the horizontal line the exposure is correct. 

I have a feeling - not supported by a real test - that the meter is very accurate, which I put down to the "lattice" in front of the actual light reading cell. The disadvantage of the M5

is that some lenses can not be used without factory modification (for example the 21 Super Angulon) as they would damage the light meter. Then  there is the fact that the

mercury battery used is no longer produced. One can use an adapter for modern cells or a cell that does not use Mercury. 

Although I have kept the film Leica bodies above, I practically use the M5 exclusively. I also like the weight of the camera and am not bothered by the size at all. When the bodies

were very cheap, I bought a total of 5 (!) and have given one each to my daughter and son. I keep two working copies and one new boxed anniversary model.

This is not a recommendation, only my personal preference.

Teddy

[michaelwj]

What Paul said.

Film Ms are like pizza (or sex); even when it's bad it's still good.

My favourite user is the M4, but my M6 has sentimental value so gets more use. I prefer the framelines in the M4, and sometimes use the self timer in the M4. I use the M6 without a battery, I find the LEDs distracting.

 

But... after saying all that you should get an M6TTL, the shutter dial goes the same way as your M262. It'll make it easier to swap between the two if they handle the same.

Edited May 25, 2017 by michaelwj

[Martin B]

Very good summaries above, not a lot to add - just a drawback which I often see with my M6: the rangefinder flare issue which does not longer allow to focus at this point. This supposedly can be fixed by sending the camera in replacing the rangefinder path for $$$. I am not doing this and shake the camera every time a bit when it flares. It also helps to dim down a bit the rectangular rangefinder piece next to the viewfinder (I am using a polarized foil). My M7 is less affected by this flare issue, but it still happens sporadically and sometimes corrects itself after a second or so. Best in this regard are supposedly older rangefinder systems manufactured before the M6.

[Nick N]

Paul's summary is great and well thought out.

 

I, myself, have used the M3, M4-2, and M7(and a digital M9).

 

A lot of people ignore the M4-2, but it is a great entry point into Leica film rangefinders and if you don't need a meter or only plan to shoot film occasionally it's a good value option since they go for pretty cheap most of the time. I primarily shoot a 50mm lens so I liked that the M4-2 didn't have 75mm framelines within the 50 framelines like every model after it does. It's the rangefinder body I started with.

 

That said I currently am using the M3 and the M7. What I found was that I began to shoot more and more film over shooting digital I found myself wanting the M3 for 50mm shooting. Then I added a M7 for when I wanted/needed to be a little quicker and for 35mm lens use.

[EddieJ]

For me the exposure meter is a must to have.

 

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If the exposure meter is a must to have then I'd go with either an:

M6 

M6TTL

M7 *Meter + Electronic shutter or 

MP

 

I underline the M7 as it is reliant upon batteries to function (probably closest to your Type 262), albeit mechanical shutter speeds of 60 & 125.

[pico]

I am looking for Leica M Film Camera. I own typ262 , but there's something special about these Leica M with Film. I need your advice which one you recommend most as new or used,

 

Thanks

 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

Oi! The responses are like evangelists' without an editor. Painful!

 

There are a few M film cameras from which to choose.

 

Decide your lenses first. Making it simple:

50mm to 90mm? M3.

35mm to 90mm? M2

A huge range of many M Lenses? M4-P (which I find a viewfinder of cluster, a disaster but use anyway)

 

.

Edited May 29, 2017 by pico

[EddieJ]

Oi! The responses are like evangelists' without an editor. Painful!

 

There are a few M film cameras from which to choose.

 

Decide your lenses first. Making it simple:

50mm to 90mm? M3.

35mm to 90mm? M2

A huge range of many M Lenses? M4-P (which I find a viewfinder of cluster, a disaster but use anyway)

 

.

 

Hmmmm.

 

However OP did post #8

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/272811-leica-syndrome/?p=3282118

 

For me the exposure meter is a must to have.

 

IMO - My post above yours with a suggestion of the M7 seems appropriate 

 

If the exposure meter is a must to have then I'd go with either an:

M6 

M6TTL

M7 *Meter + Electronic shutter or 

MP

 

I underline the M7 as it is reliant upon batteries to function (probably closest to your Type 262), albeit mechanical shutter speeds of 60 & 125.

[wattsy]

the M6TTL, which added TTL flash, at the price of a taller body. IMO the camera to avoid, apart from the slightly unbalanced design it has the least attractive viewfinder of the bunch as it tends to flare occasionally.

 

 

I'm not sure the M6TTL has a greater propensity to flare than the M6 "classic", it is just that the M6TTL was the current camera at the time that internet camera forums started to become influential in shaping opinion and I think the TTL version has thus got an undeserved rap for flare. As for the greater height, it is 2mm – the same as with the M7 – and is IMO not noticeable (certainly not in the way that the extra thickness of the M8/9 digital bodies is noticeable).

[Archiver]

If a meter is a necessity and you want to go for broke, contact a Leica dealer and order a M7 a la carte.  You can customize the leather covering, choice of red dot and engraving or not, have your name or similar engraved on the back, and even get the MP shutter and lever installed.  There are some gorgeous examples online and in the M7 threads here.

 

Alternatively, buy a well-used M7 and see how you like it.  If the handling and experience thrill you and you want something more, send it to Leica and have it customized, just like having an a la carte model made for you.  I plan to use my stock silver chrome M7 until it becomes considerably battle worn, and then send it in for a no-logo chrome top plate, custom leather covering either in ostrich, red or green, and MP hardware.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[luigi bertolotti]

For me the exposure meter is a must to have.

 

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Go straight on M6 ... and looking for items on sale, pay attention in case you find a 0,85x VF body (if you want to use frequently 28, stay out, but if you like 135, is much better).

Edited May 30, 2017 by luigi bertolotti