Should it be 'Nr' or No'?

[GladToOwnOne]

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I've just got a Leica IIIb. On the top is the serial number, but before this number is the word 'No', but in Germany, number is shortened to 'Nr'.

 

My query is this; because the serial number 'number word abbreviation' is not the normal German abbreviation, does this mean my Leica IIIb is not actually a genuine Leica?

[greyelm]

The serial number on IIIb is prefixed with "No" so you don't have a fake. The IIIb is a transition model with the smaller body style of the original Barnacks but with the RF/VF eyepieces closer together as found in the IIIc onwards. The soviet fakes are based on either a Fed or Zorki model which is crudely based on the Leica II and to the trained eye are very obvious.

Edited May 18, 2017 by greyelm

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[GladToOwnOne]

Thank you for your reply. You've made me feel more at ease now with my little treasure. This is the first Leica I've owned (got it yesterday from a dealer on the Internet) and I'm completely amazed with its tiny size, heavy weight and silk-like feel to the chrome. The black covering is unblemished, but there's a tiny indentation to the left of 'Leica' on the top plate, and is in fully working order. It's absolutely gorgeous!

 

I don't intend to use it to take photos (I prefer digital!), and got it merely to look at a beautiful object.

 

The serial number is No 288238, and the Summar 5cm f2 lens bears No 423644.

[greyelm]

Your serial number shows the body to be 1938/9 and the lens to be 1938. There is a possibility but not a certainty that they were bought together. Be careful, collecting old Leicas is addictive, I started with one and now I have ten! Why not put a roll of film through it just for fun.

[gbealnz]

I agree, don't just look at it, USE IT. If anything it will do it good.

Post your shots on the "I like Film" thread.

And welcome to the Forum.

Gary

[GladToOwnOne]

I'm too late, I think! I've become become addicted to these beautiful objects!

 

The condition of the camera body and of the lens show not a lot of use. The carrying strap eyelets show quite noticeable wear to the chrome where the strap has ridden, and there's just slight wear on the chrome around that part of the lens where the user's finger travelled with the focusing arm. So it's quite possible they've always been 'an item'. 

 

For the past decade or so I've been so absorbed by the digital revolution that I'd forgot all about traditional film. I've actually had a look on the Internet just now for 35 mil film and was surprised to find it still available. 

[luigi bertolotti]

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WELCOME TO THE FORUM !!!

 

"No" (with "o" underscored) is correct for your camera... the "Nr" is on several postwar models like IIIf (see hereunder)

 

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... being IIIf one of your probable future aquisition... (take into account greyelm statement about Leica collecting... )

 

Anyway, you are correct in questioning about fakes... those details about letters are often neglected or wrong in some russian fakes... post a picture of your item here, if you like : here in the Forum is a common practice, because we passionates/collectors do like to share our items with friends with the same passion... is a sort of "club" in which many interesting information come up..

Edited May 19, 2017 by luigi bertolotti

[GladToOwnOne]

This is a photo of the top plate, with the small dent to the left of 'Leica', near the rewind knob.

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[greyelm]

It looks as if there has been an aftermarket flash sync socket fitted just below the accessory shoe. This is not uncommon and may have been done after ww2.

[GladToOwnOne]

Sorry, I forgot to mention the added sync socket. The dealer did mention the after-sale addition of this socket to the rear top plate. I had assumed the dealer was trying simply to avoid claims of selling an item not to the original specifications, because it appeared to me that the fitment seemed to be very well-done and not an amateur job.

[earleygallery]

I've actually had a look on the Internet just now for 35 mil film and was surprised to find it still available.

This is depressing.

 

Hopefully you will now buy some film and put your new camera to good use.

[wlaidlaw]

The IIIb is a lovely camera. I have the British made version of it, the Reid and Sigrist Model III. R&S were offered the drawings for both the IIIb and post war IIIc but opted for reasons that are not wholly clear, for the pre-war IIIb to make their version, made up to the early 1960's in tiny numbers. 

 

Luigi Crescenzi of Leicatime makes a lovely hand stitched, half case in antiqued leather with matching strap for the IIIb (and Reid). 

 

Wilson

 

 

 

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[wlaidlaw]

Sorry, I forgot to mention the added sync socket. The dealer did mention the after-sale addition of this socket to the rear top plate. I had assumed the dealer was trying simply to avoid claims of selling an item not to the original specifications, because it appeared to me that the fitment seemed to be very well-done and not an amateur job.

 

Wallace Heaton, then in New Bond Street in London, fitted an M flash sync socket to my father's IIIa, when I had it serviced there in the mid 1960's.  Done just like your's on the top cover. I have also seen them added on the front of the main body like the Reid. 

 

Wilson

[philipus]

Each to their own, but you'd be surprised how good a camera a Barnack is...

 

I don't intend to use it to take photos (I prefer digital!), and got it merely to look at a beautiful object.

[wlaidlaw]

There is something far more satisfying about using a film camera, particularly a Leica or one of its quality clones like a Reid, Leotax or Nicca, just to mention three, than just blasting away with a digital. I do use digital for my commercial travel photography (for airline magazines) but film for pleasure. 

 

For anyone coming back to film and using an LTM camera, I would strongly recommend an OKARO or ORAKO orange filter on the rangefinder primary window. It makes rangefinding far easier and quicker. The only LTM that this is not possible is the IIIg, which has a very shallow RF window. You can cut a piece of colour negative to fit but the RF of the IIIg is pretty good anyway. 

 

For a starter LTM, I would always recommend the IIIg, as it is easier to use than the older cameras and has a better viewfinder. For M cameras, it is difficult to beat the bang for  your buck of the CL, albeit its RF/VF is not to the same standard as the full size M's but it fits in your pocket. For a full size M, I would recommend an M6 either original or TTL, they both work equally well. The M4 version 1 is supposed to be best built of all M cameras, before the arrival of the cost accountants and production optimisers. 

 

People who should know better, still perpetuate the myth that the 40 Summicron-C will not focus correctly on other M cameras and that normal M lenses will not focus correctly on the CL. The only M camera on which the 40-C does not focus accurately is the contemporary M5 due to the offset on the RF cam. I suspect this may have been a deliberate policy by Leica, to stop folks buying an M5 body and the cheaper 40-C to use on it, rather than the more expensive 35 or 50 regular Summicrons. As far as I am aware, all regular M lenses focus correctly on the CL. I have just taken a roll, all with my 35 ASPH Summicron on the CL and every image came out correctly. When my Summicron 40-C came back from its service and tweaking by Malcolm Taylor, I did a very careful focus check with my M240, of RF focus against optical focus at various distances and they coincided exactly throughout - myth busted!

 

Wilson

Edited May 25, 2017 by wlaidlaw

[willeica]

There is something far more satisfying about using a film camera, particularly a Leica or one of its quality clones like a Reid, Leotax or Nicca, just to mention three, than just blasting away with a digital. I do use digital for my commercial travel photography (for airline magazines) but film for pleasure. 

 

For anyone coming back to film and using an LTM camera, I would strongly recommend an OKARO or ORAKO orange filter on the rangefinder primary window. It makes rangefinding far easier and quicker. The only LTM that this is not possible is the IIIg, which has a very shallow RF window. You can cut a piece of colour negative to fit but the RF of the IIIg is pretty good anyway. 

 

For a starter LTM, I would always recommend the IIIg, as it is easier to use than the older cameras and has a better viewfinder. For M cameras, it is difficult to beat the bang for  your buck of the CL, albeit its RF/VF is not to the same standard as the full size M's but it fits in your pocket. For a full size M, I would recommend an M6 either original or TTL, they both work equally well. The M4 version 1 is supposed to be best built of all M cameras, before the arrival of the cost accountants and production optimisers. 

 

People who should know better, still perpetuate the myth that the 40 Summicron-C will not focus correctly on other M cameras and that normal M lenses will not focus correctly on the CL. The only M camera on which the 40-C does not focus accurately is the contemporary M5 due to the offset on the RF cam. I suspect this may have been a deliberate policy by Leica, to stop folks buying an M5 body and the cheaper 40-C to use on it, rather than the more expensive 35 or 50 regular Summicrons. As far as I am aware, all regular M lenses focus correctly on the CL. I have just taken a roll, all with my 35 ASPH Summicron on the CL and every image came out correctly. When my Summicron 40-C came back from its service and tweaking by Malcolm Taylor, I did a very careful focus check with my M240, of RF focus against optical focus at various distances and they coincided exactly throughout - myth busted!

 

Wilson

 

Yesterday I took a recently acquired Leotax K (LTM camera which is very similar to a Leica II) out for a test drive and I was pleasantly surprised to find that it had a built in orange filter in the rangefinder. When you see a double image of foliage you see one in green and one in orange and when the green and orange meet you are in focus; some symbolism there for an Irishman!

 

On the focus theme, I also used an early film SLR (very early Nikon F) yesterday and I found focussing very difficult with the ground glass screen. This surprised me as, in its time, this camera did a lot of market damage to the Leica M3. I find the M3 the easiest manual focus camera to use with my eyesight issues. When I got home I tried another pair of glasses and the ground glass screen on the Nikon F was much easier to use. A visit to my optician beckons as there should not be that much difference between two sets of glasses. That feature in the Leotax surprised me, though, and I wonder why Leica never tried it instead of the OKARO/ORAKO. I do recall that some early Leica IIs had a yellow filter in the rangefinder window to aid focus. I also recall that I had this feature in my first Leica II but it seemed to disappear or lessen after it had its first CLA. 

 

Using manual focus cameras is never easy for those of us with eyesight defects, but there is nothing more satisfying than using manual methods to nail focus.

 

William

Edited May 25, 2017 by willeica

[wlaidlaw]

Both my early 1920's vintage RF's a FODUA (still case-less  ) and a FODIS have pale yellow filters in their primary viewing window. If Leica realised at that point that it assisted rangefinding, as William says, why not make it standard. My Graflex Combat Graphic rangefinder also has a pale yellow filter in the RF primary window.

 

Presumably this was the idea behind using yellow tinted glasses for target and clay pigeon shooting as it increases perceived contrast. As I am right handed but left eye'd I had a pair of target shooting glasses with my prescription in a yellow lens in the right eye but a flip up black glass for the left eye, so you did not have to hold it closed. After a while holding an eye closed, you tend to get the twitches, especially if it is your master eye. 

 

Wilson

[Guest]

So how come during the last 60 years Leica did not make the tiny rangefinder window (under the time wheel) of the M cameras capable of attaching a yellow/orange glass filter in front of it?

[Denys]

Each to their own, but you'd be surprised how good a camera a Barnack is...

I agree - and my dad's 1939 iiib will still be capable of making lovely photographs long after my M9-P has become an expensive paper-weight! BTW - why not do what I have.. ..use the 1938 lens on a digital camera (assuming you can get an adaptor)?

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[wlaidlaw]

So how come during the last 60 years Leica did not make the tiny rangefinder window (under the time wheel) of the M cameras capable of attaching a yellow/orange glass filter in front of it?

 

The orange filter does not go on the secondary image window but on the primary image window. The windows are slightly different sizes which ensures that the OKARO (IIIA onwards) or ORAKO (model II & III) can only fit on the primary image window (see photo below). The secondary image window is about 0.15mm larger as it is a screw in collar, covering the rotatable prism lens, which adjusts RF vertical convergence.

 

The result is that you get an overall orange image in the RF with the central RF patch clear added onto the orange background. It does not quite work out like that and the moving patch image appears to be in a false colour. It all sounds a bit strange until you try it and see how well it works. The M's primary window is also, as I am sure you are aware, the viewfinder window, so it might seem a bit odd having an orange view of everything. I did try putting a piece of brownish colour negative film over my M8's small RF window but it was not a great success and I took it off. The idea was to stop the RF flaring out, which it could be slightly prone to do. 

 

BTW I don't think this is a Leitz OKARO but a later copy from another company. I would hazard maybe Kuhn-Wetzlar, owned by Elsie Kuhn-Leitz and her husband Dr. Kuhn, who made Leica accessories, rather like Novoflex now do. 

 

Wilson

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