Wide R Lens with large-ish image circle?

[tthorne]

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I am wondering if anyone knows of a wide R lens with a large-ish image circle to use on the SL with a shift adapter. I am really hoping for the 21-35mm to work, but I am also curious about the 19mm options as well as the 21mm and 24mm. 

 

I know the 28mm PC will cover, but I was hoping to keep it between 19mm and 24mm. By the way, if there are any other lenses you know of in that range that may work, I am all ears. My lust for an R lens to work is mostly about having a mechanical aperture ring. 

[01af]

Prime wide-angle lenses for 35-mm format never have any reserve image-circle diameter. To the contrary—they always are particularly tight (with the obvious exception of shift and tilt/shift lenses, of course). You may be lucky with wide-angle zoom lenses. At their short end, they are as tight as prime lenses, but when zooming towards the long end, the image-circle diameter will widen in proportion to the focal length. So a 21-35 mm zoom lens may have an image-circle diameter of up to 72 mm at the 35 mm setting. But then, lens barrels often are designed to constrict the widening image circle mechanically in order to avoid unwanted stray light.

 

So most likely your only viable options are the PC-Super-Angulon 28 mm—or super-wide-angle lenses made for medium-format systems, such as the Super-Elmar-S 24 mm Asph.

 

Oh, wait—there was a 24 mm shift lens in the Olympus OM system ... so if you can find an Olympus-OM-to-Leica-L adapter ... however, the OM Zuiko Shift 24 mm tends to be rare, sought-after, and pricey in today's used market. But then, so is the Super-Elmar-S 24 mm Asph

 

And then there are a few modern 24 mm, 19 mm, and 17 mm tilt/shift lenses by Canon and Nikon (and a low-cost Samyang 24 mm), but I'm afraid they are mostly useless when adapted due to their lack of aperture rings ... umm, except when there are adapters which support aperture control.

Edited May 17, 2017 by 01af

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[adan]

Rokinon makes an all-manual (including aperture) 24mm tilt-shift lens in a range of current mounts: http://www.rokinon.com/lenses/digital-photo-lenses/24mm-f35-1

 

The Nikkor 24mm PC-E also has an aperture ring (but alas, not their 19mm): http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/images1/24mm-pc/D3S_1203-950.jpg

 

Of course, that sort of negates a separate shift adapter. You just need an Nikon or whatever-to-SL adapter.

 

Otherwise, as 01af says, non-PC Leica R lenses all have 43mm image circles - zero leeway over the 43mm SL image diagonal.

 

https://www.pstechnik.de/info/documents/1495-leica-r/TechnicalSpecs_PS-Rehousing_Leica-R.pdf

[jaapv]

There is the Mamiya  Secor-C 35 mm lens, and the 24 mm , which unfortunately is a fisheye.

[luigi bertolotti]

I am wondering if anyone knows of a wide R lens with a large-ish image circle to use on the SL with a shift adapter...

Just for curios... is it THIS ONE the Shift adapter you quote ?

 

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[tthorne]

Just for curios... is it THIS ONE the Shift adapter you quote ?Hartblei_shiftadapter_SL.jpg

Yes, this is the one. I also use the Cambo Actus, but the Digital Back version. Most of what I do requires shift movements at least, and sometimes tilt as well. I have found, however, that using the Canon and Nikon t/s lenses with direct adapters causes internal reflections when shifted especially in certain conditions. If you don't catch it on the LCD then you are left to curse at the computer screen later. My hope is that the construction of this adapter along with shifting the camera instead, will result in less of these reflections if not mitigating the issue all together.

 

The issue is finding the lenses. At 35mm there are a few good medium format solutions out there with aperture rings. Wider than that and the problems begin. I know the Zeiss Otus 28mm in Nikon mount will allow some shift as well with an aperture ring. That is an expensive but formidable combination. But wider than that and things get iffy. I would like something in the 20-24 range and that will require some testing of image circles.

 

It looks like my first choice of Leica R lenses is out of the race unfortunately. The only mechanical aperture t/s lens out there is the Samyang. Some of the Nikons have the rings, but they do not operate without the electronics, thus not mechanical. I may try the Samyang 24mm tilt/shift just to have something that tilts as well has a large enough image circle and aperture ring. That aside, there are a few 20mm lenses I am curious about, like the Nikon 20mm D, Samyang 20mm, Voigtlander 20mm, and Sigma Art 20mm in Nikon mount (Nikon to EF adapter has aperture control lever).

 

We'll see. I know the Leica 28mm PC is a longer option as well, but I have had a few and the good ones are great, with some variance in the others. There is also the Schneider 28mm Super Angulon but that is too expensive for the mixed reviews I have seen. I also know I can preset aperture on certain lenses and it does make a 16-35mm zoom sound interesting.

 

Any opinions or suggestions are welcome and appreciated. Thanks everyone.

Edited May 20, 2017 by tthorne

[audidudi]

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Prime wide-angle lenses for 35-mm format never have any reserve image-circle diameter. To the contrary—they always are particularly tight (with the obvious exception of shift and tilt/shift lenses, of course). You may be lucky with wide-angle zoom lenses. At their short end, they are as tight as prime lenses, but when zooming towards the long end, the image-circle diameter will widen in proportion to the focal length. So a 21-35 mm zoom lens may have an image-circle diameter of up to 72 mm at the 35 mm setting. But then, lens barrels often are designed to constrict the widening image circle mechanically in order to avoid unwanted stray light.

 

So most likely your only viable options are the PC-Super-Angulon 28 mm—or super-wide-angle lenses made for medium-format systems, such as the Super-Elmar-S 24 mm Asph.

 

I know I'm late to respond here -- I don't visit this forum very often these days, as my only connection to Leica are a few lenses I still own -- but I wanted to point out that based upon my firsthand experience, this response is quite wrong.  But not completely, because many 35mm format lenses do project image circles that are only large enough to allow for a very limited amount of rise / fall / shift movements.  However, there are also many more 35mm-format lenses that are actually quite useful in this respect.

 

I know this, because I have a Cambo Actus, and in combination with a Sony A7R, I photograph with 35mm-format lenses almost exclusively.  For example, the Sigma Art 24/f1.4, 35/f1.4, and 24-35/f2 zoom all project images circles large enough to allow for at least +/- 10mm of rise / fall along the 24mm side of the frame (and very close to that along the wide side).  Also, the Zeiss 21/f2.8, 25/f2.8, 35/f2, 85/f1.4, and 135/f2 primes similarly allow for at least 8mm of rise / fall, typically more like 10mm, and in fact, the longest two of those are good for very nearly twice that amount!  The Pentax FA Limited family lenses also project image circles that are large enough to provide ~10mm of rise / fall (except the 43/f1.8 is limited to more like 5-7mm, as the image starts going soft a bit from the edge.)  And although it's a bit awkward to work with due to its electronic aperture, the Contax N 17-35/f2.8 zoom will provide 4-5mm of rise / fall at 17mm, 6-8mm from 19-23mm, then 10mm or more from 24-35mm.  Finally, the new Irix Blackstone 15/f2.4 provides at least +/- 10mm of rise / fall / shift movements (and surprisingly good image quality, too, for what is a very modestly priced lens.)

 

And these are just the lenses I've personally tried so far!  Although I've not tried them yet, I have it on good authority that both the 15/f2.8 and 18/f3.5 Zeiss Distagons also provide for a small, but adequare amount of rise / fall movements, too.  (For the record, I'm presently working with both the Sigma and Zeiss lenses as they do different things well and I am reluctant to give up one for the other.)  IMPORTANT NOTE: When I reference the size of the image circle, I specifically mean at f8 and focused at infinity.

 

As for promising lenses that don't have large enough image circles, the Sigma Art 20/f1.4 is unfortunately on that list due to its permanently attached lens hood.  I suspect, but don't know for certain, that removing it will increase its image circle enough for it to be useful, but I can't say for certain, because the one I tried was borrowed and therefore I didn't try remove the lens hood to confirm this.  And whlie the non-Art versions of Sigma's 12-24 zoom do have decently large image circles, I didn't like their image quality, so I passed on them. (FYI, rumor has it that Sigma's Art version of the 12-24 is much improved in terms of image quality, but I haven't yet been able to try it to determine whether its projected image circle is adequate to allow for movements.)  There are also several Canon lenses that will work, including the T&S lenses, but I've skipped them, because 1) I generally don't like the way they render; and 2) their electronic apertures complicate matters when they're used on anything but a Canon body.  The Nikon 14-24 zoom will also provide for some movements once its lens hood is removed.

 

I suppose I should also point out that I'm not stitching images, but merely using movements to correct geometric distortion and/or increase the effective DoF for the architectural-type photos I typically take.  With the exception of the two longer Zeiss lenses, none of the image circles of the lenses I mentioned are large enough for stitching purposes, so if that's what you are after, then only the Leica R 28/f2.8 PC lens or other 35mm-format PC lenses will meet your requirements.  (Speaking of which, the 28mm PC is a very good lens for stitching, but not IMO, a great one, as it renders nothing like the Zeiss lenses that I have loved for many, many years now.  There is also some variability in performance from copy to copy, so it's always possible that mine isn't as good as some others and my opinion of it isn't universally applicable.  <shrugs>)

 

As proof of my claims above, here are two photos I took very early yesterday morning with my A7R / Actus / Zeiss ZK 25/f2.8 combo.  I used .3 degrees of downward tilt and ~6mm of rear fall for the first one and ~7mm of rear fall for the second one:

 

 

 

So, while using 35mm-format lenses with 35mm-sensor cameras via a Cambo Actus is clearly not universally possible, the situation is also not nearly so bleak as the response I quoted above would suggest. 

 

As I noted initially, I know this response is probably too late to be useful to the original poster, but I hope the above info proves helpful to whoever else may stumble upon it in the future.

Edited August 17, 2017 by audidudi

[Einst_Stein]

I am wondering if anyone knows of a wide R lens with a large-ish image circle to use on the SL with a shift adapter. I am really hoping for the 21-35mm to work, but I am also curious about the 19mm options as well as the 21mm and 24mm. 

 

I know the 28mm PC will cover, but I was hoping to keep it between 19mm and 24mm. By the way, if there are any other lenses you know of in that range that may work, I am all ears. My lust for an R lens to work is mostly about having a mechanical aperture ring.

 

Dont know about R, but a third party Laowa 12mm f2.8 with the shift adapter from the same company takes very pretty pictures.

The is a very young company, but this lens is surprisingly good. I am getting it from a special channel after borrowed it from a friend, but you can get it through B and H.

[Naampje]

Dear TThorne,

 

"I know the Leica 28mm PC is a longer option as well, but I have had a few and the good ones are great, with some variance in the others. There is also the Schneider 28mm Super Angulon but that is too expensive for the mixed reviews I have seen."

 

Could you enlighten me on this a bit more? Some background info? Are there really 'lesser' versions of this lens?

I'm thinking of purchasing one.

 

And the Schneider was always cheaper than the Leica I thought?

 

Thanks in advance

[rediscover]

Are there really 'lesser' versions of this lens?

 

I'm adapting R lenses on the Fuji X-T1. The 28 PC Super Angulon is one of my best R lenses. I can't imagine that there should be better or 'lesser' lenses. Different batches were built over the years (cf. Erwin Puts) and Leica surely had an intake quality control when they received lenses or lens groups from Schneider Kreuznach. Differences in quality of this lens might be attributed to age or handling degradation by pre-owners IMHO.

rdc

[Naampje]

Thank you 'rediscover', it could very well be meant as you mention. Since this is one of your 'best' lenses, could you please write us a little review or show us some examples of your lens? I found so little information on this lens, I am really eager as in hearing about real life usage. When you use it and why, what you like most or not. I will use it on the M system, and since I am using one of Leica's smallest lenses at the moment, I'm curious how it would be with this lens with adapter connected to it. A bit massive i guess...

[Guest JMF]

The Olympus Zuiko 24 f3.5 Shift might be an option, I recently found one in Nikon F mount and it covers the 4cmX3cm format :

 

https://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/olympusom1n2/shared/zuiko/htmls/24mmSHIFT.htm

Edited September 24, 2018 by JMF

[rediscover]

... show us some examples of your lens?

 

You're welcome.

 

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/286217-r-lens-image-thread/page-9?do=findComment&comment=3598560

 

rdc