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SL is a non-solution solving no problems


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#1 helged

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 19:44

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...according to diglloyd, that is.

 

(As an owner of Leica SL and Nikon D810 (Diglloyd's favourite FF body), I prefer the SL for most of the shooting I do. Actually, I find the SL-system far more simple and intuitive than other FF-systems that I know about. And you can add an endless number and widely different types of lenses on the SL - with excellent image quality - contrary to other systems around. The SL-lenses are few in numbers (yet), but the zooms are great, possibly among the optically best. The optical quality of the 50 SL Lux is also very, very fine. And  don't forget weather sealing and the outstanding EVF. As long as 24 MP is not the limiting factor, the "non-solution solving" phrase is orthogonal to the reality as I see it. But I am not dependent on subscription incomes, either).


Edited by helged, 15 May 2017 - 19:59.

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#2 LocalHero1953

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 19:48

I'm happy to say that the SL solves a massive problem for me. When I want to take a photograph, it immediately allows me to. How about that?

 

BTW what problems do other cameras solve?


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#3 LD_50

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 20:44

Why link to the author if you do not want to support him?

Better not to even stoke the flames. I had private correspondence regarding the SL commentary and compared it directly with his commentary on several other cameras. His choice of words with the SL was very different (negative) for very similar critiques. He also writes more favorably about Pentax than Nikon or Canon when discussing the same issues with each brand.

If you'd like more details I can provide in a private message.
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#4 helged

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 21:59

Thanks - no details needed...

#5 panoreserve

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 07:05

...according to diglloyd, that is.

 

(As an owner of Leica SL and Nikon D810 (Diglloyd's favourite FF body), I prefer the SL for most of the shooting I do. Actually, I find the SL-system far more simple and intuitive than other FF-systems that I know about. And you can add an endless number and widely different types of lenses on the SL - with excellent image quality - contrary to other systems around. The SL-lenses are few in numbers (yet), but the zooms are great, possibly among the optically best. The optical quality of the 50 SL Lux is also very, very fine. And  don't forget weather sealing and the outstanding EVF. As long as 24 MP is not the limiting factor, the "non-solution solving" phrase is orthogonal to the reality as I see it. But I am not dependent on subscription incomes, either).

 

As a admirer of Billie Holiday I'd say: "digIIoyd" belongs to "these foolish things" (nobody needs) :)


Edited by panoreserve, 16 May 2017 - 07:19.

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#6 steppenw0lf

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 17:35

As I have no problem regarding taking photos, I do not need a problem solver. So the SL gives me all I need. Mostly I enjoy the great flexibility in the choice of lenses.

I tried to find the diglloyd writings about it, but could not find anything recent. Is this older stuff ?  Or could you add a link ?

 

Lately I was not too interested in his writings. He always has a lot of findings/problems, that I never can reproduce. So it does not really help to solve my "problems", but rather causing uninspiring discussions about details that do not matter to me.

 

Lately I read that he likes the colors of the M240 better than the SL, and the M9 colors even better. Again a very strange finding for me. I prefer the SL by far of all the latest cameras. Also better than the M10 colors that seem a bit too bright/saturated/cheerfull for my taste. (Maybe nice for dead objects, but not lifelike for people or many living things).

I actually like colors that are not too saturated, they remind me of the results you got from printing on chalk paper.


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#7 helged

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 17:38

As I have no problem regarding taking photos, I do not need a problem solver. So the SL gives me all I need. Mostly I enjoy the great flexibility in the choice of lenses.

I tried to find the diglloyd writings about it, but could not find anything recent. Is this older stuff ?  Or could you add a link ?

 

 

The link is embedded in "diglloyd" in the first sentence in the first post (or here). And yes, the post is new...



#8 saxo

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 19:22

...The optical quality of the 50 SL Lux is also very, very fine. .

 

Sigma ART 50mm is a well recognized lens too: were you able to do any comparison?


Edited by saxo, 16 May 2017 - 19:24.


#9 FlashGordonPhotography

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 20:39

Sigma ART 50mm is a well recognized lens too: were you able to do any comparison?

 

It is. But with no AF on the SL. And although I can buy the Sigma and a 5D4 for about the same cost as the Leica lens, I still prefer the Leica combination because of the way the lens draws and the EVF and user interface of the SL.

 

Bashing a camera has always been an easy and lazy way to generate web traffic. And Leica bashing seems to be a sport with some people. It's just a camera so I don't care what he writes. I'll just 'et him talk about photography while my SL and I get on with actually doing it and making a living from it.

 

Gordon


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#10 tom0511

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 21:44

He doesnt like Leica and therefore usually searches for theoretical flaws until he finds one and then makes like it was a real life problem, which it is most often not.


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#11 steppenw0lf

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 23:27

I read the stuff at the chambers website. I am actually puzzzled.

After reading I think the only solution for Mr. Kaufman is to hope for a graceful end without too much pain. Probably high time to contact a paliiative care unit.

 

Best is to hand everything to Sony - the technology leader and obviously the only player who really knows what he is doing - and hope that they accept the free offer - out of mercy, though this is usually not a value found in the japanese business wars.

 

But then the hypnosis falls off, I shrug myself several times, get some fresh air - it is a cool night tonight. And the bad ghosts are gone.

And all that remains is a single thought: WTF, why does anybody write such BS ........

 

If I was rich, and had invested several millions in Leica, then I would probably be interested in stuff like that. But why does Chambers write this ? How is he involved ? As a photographer he could simply use and enjoy the camera - or rather not if he finds it so terrible. But what/who does he think he is, that he has to offer this sort of advice ? Does he really think that his advice is so good, if anybody followed it, then Leica would be as successful as e.g. Sony ?

 

These business wars leave me cold - as long as I can remember there were Sony products. They always claimed to be the best and most innovative (no matter what the product was). Some products had a huge success - but what does it mean to me ? And all are gone now ....

Some Sony products offered a lot of fun (walkman, TVs, etc.), but strange enough the cameras were never among them.

Many Apple products replaced them for me. So for me Sony is rather a loser (to Apple or Samsung). It will be interesting to see what the next few years will bring .....


Edited by steppenw0lf, 16 May 2017 - 23:30.

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#12 IkarusJohn

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 00:11

Why link to the author if you do not want to support him?

 

 

Because it's entertaining and sometimes informative.

 

Lloyd Chambers and Ming Thein did identify (maybe) focus shift in the 24-90 zoom, with the original firmware.  And Leica fixed the problem, for which we should be thankful, I guess.  Even if no-one of us actually noticed ...

 

I recall Lloyd also identifying a focus shift issue when using a lens with a red filter on the Monchrom.  His explanation was very plausible; but the problem was, I couldn't reproduce it after many and varied attempts.  I suspect I'm just not a good enough photographer ...


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#13 Jeff S

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 00:31

I recall Lloyd also identifying a focus shift issue when using a lens with a red filter on the Monchrom. His explanation was very plausible; but the problem was, I couldn't reproduce it after many and varied attempts. I suspect I'm just not a good enough photographer ...


Or your lens was better corrected.

Jeff

#14 LD_50

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 01:33

Because it's entertaining and sometimes informative.

Lloyd Chambers and Ming Thein did identify (maybe) focus shift in the 24-90 zoom, with the original firmware. And Leica fixed the problem, for which we should be thankful, I guess. Even if no-one of us actually noticed ...

I recall Lloyd also identifying a focus shift issue when using a lens with a red filter on the Monchrom. His explanation was very plausible; but the problem was, I couldn't reproduce it after many and varied attempts. I suspect I'm just not a good enough photographer ...


I still don't understand how an actual focus shift issue would be corrected by firmware.

Focus shift is going to show a shift in focus as aperture is changed. This has nothing to do with firmware unless it's being suggested the camera compensates by changing the focus point when the shutter is pressed and the camera changes to the shooting aperture.

I believe they were more likely seeing some sort of auto focus error or they had bad copies of the lens. I can't reconcile focus shift with a firmware fix.

DL has found bugs and documented them well. The black spots on Monochrome images, Nikon focus errors, etc were all well documented. That said, I don't see comparisons to Ming Thein as fair as DL sensationalizes issues, rarely corrects mistakes with the same level of publicity as the original reports, writes very differently about various brands for similar issues (as I documented and sent to him), and is very rude (ALL CAPS, insults) in private correspondence when he disagrees or senses he's being criticized.

MT has been nothing but professional when I've corresponded privately even though I disagree with many things he writes, including being unable to duplicate focus shift issues with the SL.

#15 IkarusJohn

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 04:17

I still don't understand how an actual focus shift issue would be corrected by firmware.

Focus shift is going to show a shift in focus as aperture is changed. This has nothing to do with firmware unless it's being suggested the camera compensates by changing the focus point when the shutter is pressed and the camera changes to the shooting aperture.

I believe they were more likely seeing some sort of auto focus error or they had bad copies of the lens. I can't reconcile focus shift with a firmware fix...

 

 

That was also Thighslapper's view; and certainly there was an issue with the focus point in AF in version 1 of the firmware.

 

When I was unable to duplicate the focus shift issue (this is covered in another thread), I corresponded with Ming Thein.  He pointed out to me that at all apertures with the AF zooms, the SL focuses wide open, and only stops down when you fire the shutter.  Any focus shift is therefore immediately apparent.

 

Quite how Leica rectified this, I don't know - I suspect it was with the firmware update on the lens, rather than on the camera.  The end result is, by the time Ming had reported the issue to Leica (and suffered the slings and arrows of misfortune for his troubles), and the firmware updated, the problem had gone away.  I tried most assiduously to replicate it using Ming's instructions, and couldn't.

 

I do believe that Ming did find a problem, and it did sound like focus shift; though Thighslapper may also be right that it was the AF issue, also sorted in the firmware.  Whatever the problem, it has been solved.  Ming, to his credit, has acknowledged this.

 

Cheers

John


Edited by IkarusJohn, 17 May 2017 - 04:18.

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#16 profus

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 11:52

"I suspect it was with the firmware update on the lens, rather than on the camera."

 

 

 

How do you do this? I mean how to fw upgrade the lens?


Edited by profus, 17 May 2017 - 11:53.


#17 jaapv

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 13:16

I still don't understand how an actual focus shift issue would be corrected by firmware.

Focus shift is going to show a shift in focus as aperture is changed. This has nothing to do with firmware unless it's being suggested the camera compensates by changing the focus point when the shutter is pressed and the camera changes to the shooting aperture.

I believe they were more likely seeing some sort of auto focus error or they had bad copies of the lens. I can't reconcile focus shift with a firmware fix.

DL has found bugs and documented them well. The black spots on Monochrome images, Nikon focus errors, etc were all well documented. That said, I don't see comparisons to Ming Thein as fair as DL sensationalizes issues, rarely corrects mistakes with the same level of publicity as the original reports, writes very differently about various brands for similar issues (as I documented and sent to him), and is very rude (ALL CAPS, insults) in private correspondence when he disagrees or senses he's being criticized.

MT has been nothing but professional when I've corresponded privately even though I disagree with many things he writes, including being unable to duplicate focus shift issues with the SL.

As I understand it, focus shift was a misidentifcation. The problem was that the focus emphasis was on the lower side of the focus point, which obviously gives problems when the subject is not parallel to the sensor. Correction of this problem is not too hard in firmware.


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#18 LocalHero1953

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 15:05

 

"I suspect it was with the firmware update on the lens, rather than on the camera."

 

 

 

How do you do this? I mean how to fw upgrade the lens?

 

It is delivered with a f/w upgrade to the body. As soon as you connect the lens afterwards, the lens f/w is automatically upgraded.


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#19 LD_50

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 16:45

That was also Thighslapper's view; and certainly there was an issue with the focus point in AF in version 1 of the firmware.

When I was unable to duplicate the focus shift issue (this is covered in another thread), I corresponded with Ming Thein. He pointed out to me that at all apertures with the AF zooms, the SL focuses wide open, and only stops down when you fire the shutter. Any focus shift is therefore immediately apparent.

Quite how Leica rectified this, I don't know - I suspect it was with the firmware update on the lens, rather than on the camera. The end result is, by the time Ming had reported the issue to Leica (and suffered the slings and arrows of misfortune for his troubles), and the firmware updated, the problem had gone away. I tried most assiduously to replicate it using Ming's instructions, and couldn't.

I do believe that Ming did find a problem, and it did sound like focus shift; though Thighslapper may also be right that it was the AF issue, also sorted in the firmware. Whatever the problem, it has been solved. Ming, to his credit, has acknowledged this.

Cheers
John

Focus shift would be an optical property of the lens, not a software issue. The only way to correct an actual focus shift (with aperture change, as you mentioned the SL focuses wide open) with a firmware fix would be for the camera to automatically change the focus slightly when changing aperture to compensate.

I don't suspect this is actually being done. It would have to occur in both AF and manual focus settings or you would still see the shift.

I agree with others that it likely was not focus shift but was identified as such. I also spoke with MT about it and cannot come to an agreement that this was a focus shift issue.

#20 Joshua Lowe

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 19:45

Funny.  Having wasted $80 on Lloyd's site I feel the same way about him.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯




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